Black Caviar at Royal Ascot Saturday AM

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Revidere

Pine Tree Lane?

Did you mean Very Subtle?

I don't remember PTL ever facing Groovy and beating him.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Did you mean Very Subtle?

I don't remember PTL ever facing Groovy and beating him.

She finished ahead of him, I think, in the 1986 BC at SA.

[OldDog]

Another "not the best" sprinter but one whose name deserves mention is Precisionist, the fifth - and last I believe - horse to sweep the Strub Series at Santa Anita. And he wasn't limited to sprinting, either. Six furlongs in 1:08 2/5. A mile in 1:32 4/5. Ten furlongs in 2:00 1/5. Turf, dirt, slop, he ran in them all.

[outofthebox]

Groovy was a great New York based sprinter. I believe his forte back then was his second quarter. Thats where he would win his races. The way to beat Groovy was to get in front of him early, which never happened in NY. But when he came west for the 86-87 Breeders Cup races he ran into two extremely fast fillies who ran him off his feet in the first 1/4 of the race. I do realize he won the Ancient Title in his prep for the 86 BC, so he did show he can win on the west coast.
Chinook Pass was a favorite of mine. But like the mighty Lord pointed out, he was far from consistent. His best race by far was the 83 Bing Crosby at Del Mar. A friend of mine who did beyer numbers before they were published has that race as his highest rating of any sprint back in the day. I believe he gave him a 128 that day.
Phone Trick was a beast. Unfortunately he injured himself in the Groovy race and was retired.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Chinook Pass was a favorite of mine. But like the mighty Lord pointed out, he was far from consistent. His best race by far was the 83 Bing Crosby at Del Mar. A friend of mine who did beyer numbers before they were published has that race as his highest rating of any sprint back in the day. I believe he gave him a 128 that day.

I don't have the information needed right now to attempt any figures for him -- but I have no doubt he had a few killer figures -- especially the Bing Crosby where he got loose by 3 lengths at the 1st call and 5 at the half en route to an 8 length win. That Bing Crosby win also came as a 4-year-old.

Horses with his style that want to run-off and don't like pace pressure are capable of doing some very freaky things on speed figures on the days when they carry their speed the distance and when the track is speed friendly or inside speed-biased.

Gun Bow and Coaltown had races as a 4-year-old that are faster than anything I've seen. Both horses are great hall of famers -- but they were complete run-off types and had some bad performances scattered around.

A very recent example might be like a Commentator. He wasn't a total run off -- but he didn't respond to pace pressure well. He was just 13-3-1-4 lifetime in Graded Stakes races ... but he also had run Beyers of 119, 121, and 123 and could run a giant race at any distance when loose. Horses like Curlin, and Invasor aren't going to catch Commentator on his days when he's loose and the track is kind to his style. But, obviously, their accomplishments on the track are wildly superior, mainly because they can use their speed more efficiently during a race.

Just thought of a couple more that should probably be included in the conversation.

Housebuster

Smile

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Just thought of a couple more that should probably be included in the conversation.

Housebuster

Smile

I don't think there is any way Housebuster can be in the conversation. First, he was more of a 7-8f horse than he was a 6f horse and in America, 6f is the main distance for sprinters. Second, he failed in his biggest sprint test. Third, I have a real issue with a horse that's supposed to be a champion sprinter losing not once but twice to two seperate horses that won the BC Classic at his preferred distance. He lost to Unbridled in the Deputy Minister and to Black Tie Affair in the Commonwealth.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Smile

You wouldn't know it from his BC performances, but if we ignore 2yo sprints (I know this will have serious repercussions for the King Glorious fan club), Smile's record sprinting wasn't very pretty. I believe he was double digit odds in both his BC Sprint starts. He was buried by Phone Trick in NY, was off the board in the Vosburgh and the Philly Park BC.

That's not to say he wasn't a very good horse. Physical issues held him back some, but he was well-managed to make it to his 5yo season.

Yet another route horse who put the best sprinters in their place.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

She finished ahead of him, I think, in the 1986 BC at SA.

I was being semi facetious, but I thought she was a really fast horse mare or not. If Angel had closed the rail, she would have won the 1986 Sprint.

And in 1987 she outsprinted Groovy from the gate. In fairness, Groovy broke from the rail and Very Subtle had a nice clear run from post 9.

I think if you look at Pine Tree Lane's Bold Ruler and Carter, they were pretty fast races. Unfortunately she ran down badly in the Genuine Risk and really was never the same again.