Black Caviar at Royal Ascot Saturday AM

Just thought of a couple more that should probably be included in the conversation.

Housebuster

Smile

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Just thought of a couple more that should probably be included in the conversation.

Housebuster

Smile

I don't think there is any way Housebuster can be in the conversation. First, he was more of a 7-8f horse than he was a 6f horse and in America, 6f is the main distance for sprinters. Second, he failed in his biggest sprint test. Third, I have a real issue with a horse that's supposed to be a champion sprinter losing not once but twice to two seperate horses that won the BC Classic at his preferred distance. He lost to Unbridled in the Deputy Minister and to Black Tie Affair in the Commonwealth.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think there is any way Housebuster can be in the conversation. First, he was more of a 7-8f horse than he was a 6f horse and in America, 6f is the main distance for sprinters. Second, he failed in his biggest sprint test. Third, I have a real issue with a horse that's supposed to be a champion sprinter losing not once but twice to two seperate horses that won the BC Classic at his preferred distance. He lost to Unbridled in the Deputy Minister and to Black Tie Affair in the Commonwealth.

I really never understood the love for Housebuster back then.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Third, I have a real issue with a horse that's supposed to be a champion sprinter losing not once but twice to two seperate horses that won the BC Classic at his preferred distance. He lost to Unbridled in the Deputy Minister and to Black Tie Affair in the Commonwealth.

Unbridled was unbeaten in 3 one-turn races following his Kentucky Derby score. Housebuster was coming off a 6-month layoff precipitated by an ankle injury.

As for Black Tie Affair, he was a well-established sprinter at the time he defeated Housebuster. In fact, that was his second victory in the Commonwealth, having won the previous year. He was also 3rd in the '90 BC Sprint and ran in the race in 1989 as well.

Just more proof that horses with stamina are inherently superior to sprinters, but I certainly wouldn't knock Housebuster as a sprinter because he lost to that pair.

Dixie Union beat Caller One. Pleasant Tap beat Cardmania. Dancing Spree beat Safely Kept.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Unbridled was unbeaten in 3 one-turn races following his Kentucky Derby score. Housebuster was coming off a 6-month layoff precipitated by an ankle injury.

As for Black Tie Affair, he was a well-established sprinter at the time he defeated Housebuster. In fact, that was his second victory in the Commonwealth, having won the previous year. He was also 3rd in the '90 BC Sprint and ran in the race in 1989 as well.

Just more proof that horses with stamina are inherently superior to sprinters, but I certainly wouldn't knock Housebuster as a sprinter because he lost to that pair.

Dixie Union beat Caller One. Pleasant Tap beat Cardmania. Dancing Spree beat Safely Kept.

I'm aware of the records of both Unbridled and Black Tie Affair as well as those other instances you mentioned where good routers beat good sprinters. I never said Housebuster wasn't good. I said those were the reasons why I could not put in in a conversation with the best sprinters. As I also said, in this country, even though 7f is a sprint and even one-turn miles like the Met are considered sprints by some, 6f is the main distance one must excel at to be a champion sprinter. It's just like with humans, 200m is a sprint race. Even 400m is a sprint race. But the 100m champion is the one generally considered the fastest man in the world.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'm aware of the records of both Unbridled and Black Tie Affair as well as those other instances you mentioned where good routers beat good sprinters. I never said Housebuster wasn't good. I said those were the reasons why I could not put in in a conversation with the best sprinters. As I also said, in this country, even though 7f is a sprint and even one-turn miles like the Met are considered sprints by some, 6f is the main distance one must excel at to be a champion sprinter. It's just like with humans, 200m is a sprint race. Even 400m is a sprint race. But the 100m champion is the one generally considered the fastest man in the world.

This is interesting, because unfortunately, as you mentioned, Housebuster only ran twice at the 6f distance following his 3yo campaign (for the record, he won a little 6f stakes at 2 and the 6f Spectacular Bid at GP at 3)..

You say that Housebuster failed in his most important sprint test, I presume the '91 BC Sprint. Of course, Housebuster broke down in the race necessitating a leg brace and removal from the track via the horse ambulance. Perhaps we should let that race slide just this one time and turn our attention to the one 6f race he did compete in, namely the '91 Frank De Francis Dash.

Pitted against Housebuster, who had only won the Carter at that point, was1989 sprint champion Safely Kept 3 for 3 on the year. Also shipping in was Clever Trevor, reformed as a sprinter, and 2 for 2 on the year, both in stakes events. From the West Coast, the streaking Robyn Dancer, also 3 for 3 on the year setting a world record and fresh off an 8-length romp in the Triple Bend at Hollywood. D. Wayne Lukas had Sunny Blossom, the 6f track record holder at Santa Anita, entered of several placings in important sprints earlier in the year. The other entrant was Bravely Bold, who took down 4 stakes on the year. He ended up breaking down badly in the race.

Housebuster romped by 5, just shy of the 6f mark at Laurel. Safely Kept missed the break, but was spared having to battle torrid fractions set by Bravely Bold and Sunny Blossom.

Does this make him one of the all-time great sprinters? I guess it's debateable. But since you found cause to throw King Glorious's name in the ring, himself having just two 6f races to his credit (one a Grade 3 in June of his 2yo year, the other a Cal-bred $50k stakes with 3 horses in February of his 3yo year), I'm not so sure you should be campaigning with such fervor to strike Housebuster's name from the discussion.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

This is interesting, because unfortunately, as you mentioned, Housebuster only ran twice at the 6f distance following his 3yo campaign (for the record, he won a little 6f stakes at 2 and the 6f Spectacular Bid at GP at 3)..

You say that Housebuster failed in his most important sprint test, I presume the '91 BC Sprint. Of course, Housebuster broke down in the race necessitating a leg brace and removal from the track via the horse ambulance. Perhaps we should let that race slide just this one time and turn our attention to the one 6f race he did compete in, namely the '91 Frank De Francis Dash.

Pitted against Housebuster, who had only won the Carter at that point, was1989 sprint champion Safely Kept 3 for 3 on the year. Also shipping in was Clever Trevor, reformed as a sprinter, and 2 for 2 on the year, both in stakes events. From the West Coast, the streaking Robyn Dancer, also 3 for 3 on the year setting a world record and fresh off an 8-length romp in the Triple Bend at Hollywood. D. Wayne Lukas had Sunny Blossom, the 6f track record holder at Santa Anita, entered of several placings in important sprints earlier in the year. The other entrant was Bravely Bold, who took down 4 stakes on the year. He ended up breaking down badly in the race.

Housebuster romped by 5, just shy of the 6f mark at Laurel. Safely Kept missed the break, but was spared having to battle torrid fractions set by Bravely Bold and Sunny Blossom.

Does this make him one of the all-time great sprinters? I guess it's debateable. But since you found cause to throw King Glorious's name in the ring, himself having just two 6f races to his credit (one a Grade 3 in June of his 2yo year, the other a Cal-bred $50k stakes with 3 horses in February of his 3yo year), I'm not so sure you should be campaigning with such fervor to strike Housebuster's name from the discussion.

I mentioned King Glorious was pretty damn fast. I didn't mention him with the best sprinters ever. My feeling is that he probably would have been one but his record doesn't support it. Neither does Housebuster's.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I mentioned King Glorious was pretty damn fast. I didn't mention him with the best sprinters ever. My feeling is that he probably would have been one but his record doesn't support it. Neither does Housebuster's.

One of the problems I'm having with your reasoning is that you seem to hold Housebuster to a special standard, while the other horses you mentioned get a free pass.

Housebuster's stakes record at 6f: 3 for 4
Lost In The Fog: 5 for 8
Artax: 2 for 7

There doesn't appear to be many committed 6f horses in the upper echelons of racing. At least not nowadays.

Recent Sprint Champions:

Amazombie: 3 for 5
Big Drama: 4 for 6
Kodiak Kowboy: 2 for 5
Benny The Bull: 6 for 11
Midnight Lute: 2 for 2
Speightstown: 3 for 5
Aldebaran: 0 for 1
Orientate: 3 for 3
Squirtle Squirt: 2 for 3
Kona Gold: 6 for 17
Lit de Justice: 3 for 4
Cherokee Run: 2 for 4

I guess if we use 6f as the true gold standard, then the debate is between Xtra Heat and Soviet Problem.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Smile

You wouldn't know it from his BC performances, but if we ignore 2yo sprints (I know this will have serious repercussions for the King Glorious fan club), Smile's record sprinting wasn't very pretty. I believe he was double digit odds in both his BC Sprint starts. He was buried by Phone Trick in NY, was off the board in the Vosburgh and the Philly Park BC.

That's not to say he wasn't a very good horse. Physical issues held him back some, but he was well-managed to make it to his 5yo season.

Yet another route horse who put the best sprinters in their place.