WI Union-busting provisions added in budget committee

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

lol

No one knocks teachers but anyone who can't see the damage done to the education system by teachers unions just isnt looking very hard.

What is sad is tying tax cuts to businesses to teachers unions. Hardworking, job creators are suddenly the bad guys and fatcat union bosses are the good guys.

I have no issues with teachers and there is no question that they are a vital cog in our society but seriously the more cash we pour into the education system, the worse the results are. How anyone of any political affiliation can't see this and cant see what the bureaucratic mess created by the teachers unions has done is blind.

I should have read this post first!!

Where is the happy medium?? You can't put ZERO money into the education system can you?? What public schools are expected to do is unfathomable. They must take every single child no questions asked which charter/private schools don't have to do. It's nearly impossible to get perfect public schools. If you look at some of the kids in the system, it's a tough task. Yes, it can get better, but using standardized test as the only measure of success as is currently being done, it makes it very, very tough.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

I should have read this post first!!

Where is the happy medium?? You can't put ZERO money into the education system can you?? What public schools are expected to do is unfathomable. They must take every single child no questions asked which charter/private schools don't have to do. It's nearly impossible to get perfect public schools. If you look at some of the kids in the system, it's a tough task. Yes, it can get better, but using standardized test as the only measure of success as is currently being done, it makes it very, very tough.

LOL
Who suggested putting zero into education? The amount of money keeps increasing yet the quality of education keeps decreasing. I guess we should just blame the kids?

One of the big problems with teachers unions like ACT and NEA is they derive clout from delivering their members votes and from the massive amounts of money they collect in dues. They block reform which obviously is much needed. The NEA employs more political organizers than the Democratic and Republican parties combined. Yeah they are interested in the kids.

In NYC in 2006-2007 there were 10 teachers fired out of over 55000 tenured. The average cost to fire an tenured teacher in NY is in excess of $128,000 due to the legal challenges from the teachers unions regardless of the much the teacher in question deserved to lose their job.

In Chicago where only 28.5% of 11th graders met or exceeded expectations on state standardized tests less than .01% of teachers between 2005 and 2008 were fired for poor performance.

In NYC the city spends more than $100 million a year paying teachers that arent currently teaching. The union contract requires that any teacher with tenure be paid their full salary and benefits if they are sent to the “Absent Teacher Reserve pool. The average pay of a teacher in that pool? $82,000 a year. Some of the teachers have been in the pool since 2006.

In a 2007 report, the nonprofit Education Sector found that nearly 19 percent of all public education spending in America goes towards things like seniority-based pay increases and outsized benefits. If these provisions were done away with, the report found, $77 billion in education money would be freed up for initiatives that could actually improve learning, like paying high-performing teachers more money.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

LOL
Who suggested putting zero into education? The amount of money keeps increasing yet the quality of education keeps decreasing. I guess we should just blame the kids?

One of the big problems with teachers unions like ACT and NEA is they derive clout from delivering their members votes and from the massive amounts of money they collect in dues. They block reform which obviously is much needed. The NEA employs more political organizers than the Democratic and Republican parties combined. Yeah they are interested in the kids.

In NYC in 2006-2007 there were 10 teachers fired out of over 55000 tenured. The average cost to fire an tenured teacher in NY is in excess of $128,000 due to the legal challenges from the teachers unions regardless of the much the teacher in question deserved to lose their job.

In Chicago where only 28.5% of 11th graders met or exceeded expectations on state standardized tests less than .01% of teachers between 2005 and 2008 were fired for poor performance.

In NYC the city spends more than $100 million a year paying teachers that arent currently teaching. The union contract requires that any teacher with tenure be paid their full salary and benefits if they are sent to the “Absent Teacher Reserve pool. The average pay of a teacher in that pool? $82,000 a year. Some of the teachers have been in the pool since 2006.

In a 2007 report, the nonprofit Education Sector found that nearly 19 percent of all public education spending in America goes towards things like seniority-based pay increases and outsized benefits. If these provisions were done away with, the report found, $77 billion in education money would be freed up for initiatives that could actually improve learning, like paying high-performing teachers more money.

Absent Teachers Reserve Pool....is that like those rooms set up for the Autoworkers?

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

LOL
Who suggested putting zero into education? The amount of money keeps increasing yet the quality of education keeps decreasing. I guess we should just blame the kids?

It's a difficult task on the blame game. The fault is to be leveled at many people, unions included, but they are far, far from the only one's involved. Yes, you blame the kids too. If someone commits a murder, the shooter is to blame. What happened in his life to get him to the point where they commit a murder is irrelevant to some extent. You have to punish the shooter though many others were to "blame" or in some way "responsible" for his state. Same with kids in school. If they have virtually zero desire to learn, some of the blame is on them without question. No?? Education is a tough game...very, very tough in some areas of the country. Determining why every single kid who has no desire whatsoever to learn anything in the public school system is an impossible task that cannot and will not ever be solved.

I find the conservative attack on unions distasteful to the extreme. Yes, there are bad elements to them without question and that is not even a debatable point. That is human beings in a nutshell. Why would unions be exempt from distasteful human beings?? They aren't. But the whole gist of the attack on unions it is the desire of slave labor. that is all this is about. Dirt cheap labor is the goal and corporations have it and they ain't gettin it in America. corporations are doing fantastic without having to hire American workers. The initial goal of labor unions were very, very good and they did a lot, a lot of good. They were a prominent player in the explosion of the middle class in AMerica. It's now over. No one will work for slave wages in this country but they do in many other countries in the world. why in hell would steve jobs make an i-phone in this country when he doesn't have too?

The ultimate goal of destroying all unions that exist is the goal for a return to cheaper labor here. that is all it is. And if you really think the goal of destroying teacher unions is to reward "great" teachers you live in an alternate universe. No, it's cheap labor is all it is. You lose the "lavish benefits", and lose all collective bargaining, you get cheaper labor. And everyone knows that is all this is about but won't really admit it. They're afraid to do that. That is all it is about. For a group of politicians all over the country to promote the "fact" that public school teachers are living extravagent, easy, problem free lives simply for the purpose of pitting the rubes against each other is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever witnessed in my life. It's beyond sick.

The deficit theater is another high level comedy act that is better than Monty Python in it's level of comedy. The schtick being played out by Ds and Rs is masterful. They are perfectly on board with each other and playing all of us for fools and suceeding with aplomb. That people think there is one iota of difference in them is silly. That people think elections in this country have any meaning whatsoever is more comedy. The game is nearly over now. It's ok, medicare over, social security over, unions over, 7 wars at once....BAM--you-betcha!! Sarah Palin, Barrack Obama, Mitt Romney, John McCain. We would see zero difference whatsoever in any of them. zero. Geithner, Bernake--BAM--you betcha!! Austerity bitches, austerity!

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

The deficit theater is another high level comedy act that is better than Monty Python in it's level of comedy. The schtick being played out by Ds and Rs is masterful. They are perfectly on board with each other and playing all of us for fools and suceeding with aplomb. That people think there is one iota of difference in them is silly. That people think elections in this country have any meaning whatsoever is more comedy. The game is nearly over now. It's ok, medicare over, social security over, unions over, 7 wars at once....BAM--you-betcha!! Sarah Palin, Barrack Obama, Mitt Romney, John McCain. We would see zero difference whatsoever in any of them. zero. Geithner, Bernake--BAM--you betcha!! Austerity bitches, austerity!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

It's a difficult task on the blame game. The fault is to be leveled at many people, unions included, but they are far, far from the only one's involved. Yes, you blame the kids too. If someone commits a murder, the shooter is to blame. What happened in his life to get him to the point where they commit a murder is irrelevant to some extent. You have to punish the shooter though many others were to "blame" or in some way "responsible" for his state. Same with kids in school. If they have virtually zero desire to learn, some of the blame is on them without question. No?? Education is a tough game...very, very tough in some areas of the country. Determining why every single kid who has no desire whatsoever to learn anything in the public school system is an impossible task that cannot and will not ever be solved.

I find the conservative attack on unions distasteful to the extreme. Yes, there are bad elements to them without question and that is not even a debatable point. That is human beings in a nutshell. Why would unions be exempt from distasteful human beings?? They aren't. But the whole gist of the attack on unions it is the desire of slave labor. that is all this is about. Dirt cheap labor is the goal and corporations have it and they ain't gettin it in America. corporations are doing fantastic without having to hire American workers. The initial goal of labor unions were very, very good and they did a lot, a lot of good. They were a prominent player in the explosion of the middle class in AMerica. It's now over. No one will work for slave wages in this country but they do in many other countries in the world. why in hell would steve jobs make an i-phone in this country when he doesn't have too?

The ultimate goal of destroying all unions that exist is the goal for a return to cheaper labor here. that is all it is. And if you really think the goal of destroying teacher unions is to reward "great" teachers you live in an alternate universe. No, it's cheap labor is all it is. You lose the "lavish benefits", and lose all collective bargaining, you get cheaper labor. And everyone knows that is all this is about but won't really admit it. They're afraid to do that. That is all it is about. For a group of politicians all over the country to promote the "fact" that public school teachers are living extravagent, easy, problem free lives simply for the purpose of pitting the rubes against each other is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever witnessed in my life. It's beyond sick.

The deficit theater is another high level comedy act that is better than Monty Python in it's level of comedy. The schtick being played out by Ds and Rs is masterful. They are perfectly on board with each other and playing all of us for fools and suceeding with aplomb. That people think there is one iota of difference in them is silly. That people think elections in this country have any meaning whatsoever is more comedy. The game is nearly over now. It's ok, medicare over, social security over, unions over, 7 wars at once....BAM--you-betcha!! Sarah Palin, Barrack Obama, Mitt Romney, John McCain. We would see zero difference whatsoever in any of them. zero. Geithner, Bernake--BAM--you betcha!! Austerity bitches, austerity!

So the fact that teachers unions have strangled the life out of the education system in this country is due to human nature?

I wish you would have attempted a retort of the ridiculous waste of money caused by the unions for no good purpose other than self preservation and political gain instead of a rambling diatribe that shows great potential to have been aided by scotch.

The saddest thing is when people rush to defend the teachers unions is they do so in spite of the unions lack of help for those that they should be helping, the dedicated teachers and students.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So the fact that teachers unions have strangled the life out of the education system in this country is due to human nature?

I wish you would have attempted a retort of the ridiculous waste of money caused by the unions for no good purpose other than self preservation and political gain instead of a rambling diatribe that shows great potential to have been aided by scotch.

The saddest thing is when people rush to defend the teachers unions is they do so in spite of the unions lack of help for those that they should be helping, the dedicated teachers and students.

That is silly. There are several factors involved with strangling the life out of public education. To cop out and say teacher unions are 100 percent responsible for education problems is a complete cop out as well. Poverty doesn't play a factor at all? I drink nothing...ever....honestly. I reqally don't. As a type 1 diabetic for the brunt of my life, over drinking would simply not be prudent. When my mom and dad went to work the existence of unions played zero role in what they were trying to accomplish day to day. Yes, they existed, but our views are coming from two different points of view. If you think you know more about the inner workings of public education day to day than I do dream on. I lived it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

That is silly. There are several factors involved with strangling the life out of public education. To cop out and say teacher unions are 100 percent responsible for education problems is a complete cop out as well. Poverty doesn't play a factor at all? I drink nothing...ever....honestly. I reqally don't. As a type 1 diabetic for the brunt of my life, over drinking would simply not be prudent. When my mom and dad went to work the existence of unions played zero role in what they were trying to accomplish day to day. Yes, they existed, but our views are coming from two different points of view. If you think you know more about the inner workings of public education day to day than I do dream on. I lived it.

The problem is you are looking at it solely from your own personal experience. No one said that teachers unions are 100% responsible but they have to take the lions share of the blame. They are the single most powerful bloc involved with education and the huge national unions overwhelm the local boards and set up systems and rules that squeeze every penny they can into their coffers often at the expense of the students.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...concludes.html

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem is you are looking at it solely from your own personal experience. No one said that teachers unions are 100% responsible but they have to take the lions share of the blame. They are the single most powerful bloc involved with education and the huge national unions overwhelm the local boards and set up systems and rules that squeeze every penny they can into their coffers often at the expense of the students.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...concludes.html

Ok. I really don't think they are the lions share to blame either. I think the end result of all of this is the ending of public education in this country which is a shame. I see what is going on here in Idaho where I live now where it is overwhelmingly conservative and we are slowly turning our public education into home schooling. The current state superintendant was financed by home schooling corporations in his election and low and behold we are now requiring several on line classes by all students at the expense of a thousand teachers losing jobs...a massive increase in class size and laptops now being provided to all high school kids. And guess who will provide that on-line learnin'?? Could it be the corporations who financed his election!!! You don't say now do you!! I have no problem with home schooling for those who choose it, but I don't want my kids doing it in public schools which they will be now. My daughter won't be affected too much as she is nearly done, but my 3 boys will be and it will stink. Collective bargaining has been ended here and the unions pretty much shot which is the goal most places but here in Idaho it isn't a big news state so gets ignored, but I see home schooling being implemented with these required on line classes with teachers being turned into glorified baby sitters then turned into that completely.

Even in extremely conservative Idaho there was a recall attempt at the current state superintendant for what he is implementing but it failed...not quite enough signatures in time. This is where we are headed and I can't stand it.