WI Union-busting provisions added in budget committee

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

No. The right to unionize is a freedom. Being taken away by some.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of unions.

And for public employees it should be taken away. Public servant unions are nothing but political bodies. This wasn't the intent of allowing workers to be protected. There are a myriad of rules and laws that already protect these workers.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And for public employees it should be taken away. Public servant unions are nothing but political bodies. This wasn't the intent of allowing workers to be protected. There are a myriad of rules and laws that already protect these workers.

I have no problem with public employees being unionized. It helps protect them from patronage, for example.

It's funny, my entire life both political parties praised teachers, talking about how they are the epitome of dedication to this country, how they are never paid enough for the tough and important job they do ... and this election season the Republicans are demonizing them. Sad. Well, I guess somebody has to pay for the GOP tax cuts to businesses, and demonizing unions is at the top of this election season's RGA playbook.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

I have no problem with public employees being unionized. It helps protect them from patronage, for example.

It's funny, my entire life both political parties praised teachers, talking about how they are the epitome of dedication to this country, how they are never paid enough for the tough and important job they do ... and this election season the Republicans are demonizing them. Sad. Well, I guess somebody has to pay for the GOP tax cuts to businesses, and demonizing unions is at the top of this election season's RGA playbook.

lol

No one knocks teachers but anyone who can't see the damage done to the education system by teachers unions just isnt looking very hard.

What is sad is tying tax cuts to businesses to teachers unions. Hardworking, job creators are suddenly the bad guys and fatcat union bosses are the good guys.

I have no issues with teachers and there is no question that they are a vital cog in our society but seriously the more cash we pour into the education system, the worse the results are. How anyone of any political affiliation can't see this and cant see what the bureaucratic mess created by the teachers unions has done is blind.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

lol
No one knocks teachers but anyone who can't see the damage done to the education system by teachers unions just isnt looking very hard.

And anyone who can't appreciate how teachers unions have kept people in teaching, classrooms a manageable size, etc. isn't looking very hard.

Good and bad to teachers unions, but remember that they don't dictate or bargain alone. Have to hold the other signers of the contracts equally responsible if something bad is there.

What is sad is tying tax cuts to businesses to teachers unions. Hardworking, job creators are suddenly the bad guys and fatcat union bosses are the good guys.

Just reading those newly-created Republican words off the playsheet?

If tax cuts help "job creators", 2000-2008 would have been a huge economic boom. It was a disaster. As the tax cuts during Reagan were.

Facts have a liberal bias.

[Danzig]

teachers unions pushed smaller class size, saying that would help...all that did was put more dues into the union, it certainly didn't change test scores.
unions are a business, and of course their number one concern is making money.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

And anyone who can't appreciate how teachers unions have kept people in teaching, classrooms a manageable size, etc. isn't looking very hard.

Good and bad to teachers unions, but remember that they don't dictate or bargain alone. Have to hold the other signers of the contracts equally responsible if something bad is there.



Just reading those newly-created Republican words off the playsheet?

If tax cuts help "job creators", 2000-2008 would have been a huge economic boom. It was a disaster. As the tax cuts during Reagan were.

Facts have a liberal bias.

Your version of facts is funny as you take a single point and twist whatever argument you want out of it.

Are we now denying that businesses create jobs? Or tax increases help create jobs (non government version)?

Lets not kid ourselves into why teachers unions heavily favor Democrats, the simple selling off of our education system for votes.

And acting as if Democrats and unions have real negotiations is laughable. Sadly GOP pols have gotten brow beaten for years into concessions for teachers unions. You know the mock outrage "the poor kids!" bs.

The idea that teachers unions are trying to make the education of children a priority is a sad joke as many districts are forced to cut program for the students to ensure that they can pay for lavish benefits negotiated by unions. Such as in NY a public school teacher only has to work 120 of 160 days. What other job do you work 10 months of the year, no weekends and get paid full time to work 75% of the schedule? If a student took as many days off as teachers are allowed they would be considered a truant.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Your version of facts is funny as you take a single point and twist whatever argument you want out of it.

Are we now denying that businesses create jobs? Or tax increases help create jobs (non government version)?

Lets not kid ourselves into why teachers unions heavily favor Democrats, the simple selling off of our education system for votes.

And acting as if Democrats and unions have real negotiations is laughable. Sadly GOP pols have gotten brow beaten for years into concessions for teachers unions. You know the mock outrage "the poor kids!" bs.

The idea that teachers unions are trying to make the education of children a priority is a sad joke as many districts are forced to cut program for the students to ensure that they can pay for lavish benefits negotiated by unions. Such as in NY a public school teacher only has to work 120 of 160 days. What other job do you work 10 months of the year, no weekends and get paid full time to work 75% of the schedule? If a student took as many days off as teachers are allowed they would be considered a truant.

this is shocking to me. I grew up the child of teachers and they never were close to being allowed to take 40 personal days in a year. That simply didn't exist as an option and teacher unions existed in Ohio. They received no lavish benefits ever. My father did eventually go into administration which I guess is an evil unto itself which I am unaware of too much. In those positions he worked 12 months a year non-stop with very little vacation at all. He did have the luxury of dying quite young, so unfortunately didn't get to reap the benefits of all those other "lavish benefits" of which you speak and I as a child of public educators have no clue as to what you are talking about. I am glad to know that my parents are part of a group largely responsible for the decline of America. I take pride in that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

this is shocking to me. I grew up the child of teachers and they never were close to being allowed to take 40 personal days in a year. That simply didn't exist as an option and teacher unions existed in Ohio. They received no lavish benefits ever. My father did eventually go into administration which I guess is an evil unto itself which I am unaware of too much. In those positions he worked 12 months a year non-stop with very little vacation at all. He did have the luxury of dying quite young, so unfortunately didn't get to reap the benefits of all those other "lavish benefits" of which you speak and I as a child of public educators have no clue as to what you are talking about. I am glad to know that my parents are part of a group largely responsible for the decline of America. I take pride in that.

I guess they should have moved to NY

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

this is shocking to me. I grew up the child of teachers and they never were close to being allowed to take 40 personal days in a year. That simply didn't exist as an option and teacher unions existed in Ohio. They received no lavish benefits ever. My father did eventually go into administration which I guess is an evil unto itself which I am unaware of too much. In those positions he worked 12 months a year non-stop with very little vacation at all. He did have the luxury of dying quite young, so unfortunately didn't get to reap the benefits of all those other "lavish benefits" of which you speak and I as a child of public educators have no clue as to what you are talking about. I am glad to know that my parents are part of a group largely responsible for the decline of America. I take pride in that.

yeah, my mom is a teacher, and she has good health insurance. but she surely never takes 40 days off of work maybe 4 total, but not 40. sure she has good insurance, but she deserves every dime she gets, in salary and benefits.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Your version of facts is funny as you take a single point and twist whatever argument you want out of it.

LOL - My only "point" is that your blatant blaming of unions for everything bad doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It's just the current Republican political fad, so they have someone to blame (you know, teachers, firemen and policemen have ruined this country, right?) so they can have someone pay for financing more of their tax cuts to business.

For example, in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker said the unions needed to make sacrifices to help balance the budget. The unions immediately agreed to those sacrifices. The unions proactively helped balance the budget.

Walker busted the unions anyway. It's all about creating false blame and hate. Not reality.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

LOL - My only "point" is that your blatant blaming of unions for everything bad doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It's just the current Republican political fad, so they have someone to blame (you know, teachers, firemen and policemen have ruined this country, right?) so they can have someone pay for financing more of their tax cuts to business.

For example, in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker said the unions needed to make sacrifices to help balance the budget. The unions immediately agreed to those sacrifices. The unions proactively helped balance the budget.

Walker busted the unions anyway. It's all about creating false blame and hate. Not reality.

Unions have always been SO willing to sacrifice for the common good. You arent running for political office so why not acknowledge that there is a massive difference between the individuals that belong to a union (most of the time have no choice in the matter) and the union itself.

Again acting as if unions havent abused their position and become something that they weren't intended to when created is myopic or just wrong.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

lol

No one knocks teachers but anyone who can't see the damage done to the education system by teachers unions just isnt looking very hard.

What is sad is tying tax cuts to businesses to teachers unions. Hardworking, job creators are suddenly the bad guys and fatcat union bosses are the good guys.

I have no issues with teachers and there is no question that they are a vital cog in our society but seriously the more cash we pour into the education system, the worse the results are. How anyone of any political affiliation can't see this and cant see what the bureaucratic mess created by the teachers unions has done is blind.

I should have read this post first!!

Where is the happy medium?? You can't put ZERO money into the education system can you?? What public schools are expected to do is unfathomable. They must take every single child no questions asked which charter/private schools don't have to do. It's nearly impossible to get perfect public schools. If you look at some of the kids in the system, it's a tough task. Yes, it can get better, but using standardized test as the only measure of success as is currently being done, it makes it very, very tough.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

I should have read this post first!!

Where is the happy medium?? You can't put ZERO money into the education system can you?? What public schools are expected to do is unfathomable. They must take every single child no questions asked which charter/private schools don't have to do. It's nearly impossible to get perfect public schools. If you look at some of the kids in the system, it's a tough task. Yes, it can get better, but using standardized test as the only measure of success as is currently being done, it makes it very, very tough.

LOL
Who suggested putting zero into education? The amount of money keeps increasing yet the quality of education keeps decreasing. I guess we should just blame the kids?

One of the big problems with teachers unions like ACT and NEA is they derive clout from delivering their members votes and from the massive amounts of money they collect in dues. They block reform which obviously is much needed. The NEA employs more political organizers than the Democratic and Republican parties combined. Yeah they are interested in the kids.

In NYC in 2006-2007 there were 10 teachers fired out of over 55000 tenured. The average cost to fire an tenured teacher in NY is in excess of $128,000 due to the legal challenges from the teachers unions regardless of the much the teacher in question deserved to lose their job.

In Chicago where only 28.5% of 11th graders met or exceeded expectations on state standardized tests less than .01% of teachers between 2005 and 2008 were fired for poor performance.

In NYC the city spends more than $100 million a year paying teachers that arent currently teaching. The union contract requires that any teacher with tenure be paid their full salary and benefits if they are sent to the “Absent Teacher Reserve pool. The average pay of a teacher in that pool? $82,000 a year. Some of the teachers have been in the pool since 2006.

In a 2007 report, the nonprofit Education Sector found that nearly 19 percent of all public education spending in America goes towards things like seniority-based pay increases and outsized benefits. If these provisions were done away with, the report found, $77 billion in education money would be freed up for initiatives that could actually improve learning, like paying high-performing teachers more money.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

LOL
Who suggested putting zero into education? The amount of money keeps increasing yet the quality of education keeps decreasing. I guess we should just blame the kids?

One of the big problems with teachers unions like ACT and NEA is they derive clout from delivering their members votes and from the massive amounts of money they collect in dues. They block reform which obviously is much needed. The NEA employs more political organizers than the Democratic and Republican parties combined. Yeah they are interested in the kids.

In NYC in 2006-2007 there were 10 teachers fired out of over 55000 tenured. The average cost to fire an tenured teacher in NY is in excess of $128,000 due to the legal challenges from the teachers unions regardless of the much the teacher in question deserved to lose their job.

In Chicago where only 28.5% of 11th graders met or exceeded expectations on state standardized tests less than .01% of teachers between 2005 and 2008 were fired for poor performance.

In NYC the city spends more than $100 million a year paying teachers that arent currently teaching. The union contract requires that any teacher with tenure be paid their full salary and benefits if they are sent to the “Absent Teacher Reserve pool. The average pay of a teacher in that pool? $82,000 a year. Some of the teachers have been in the pool since 2006.

In a 2007 report, the nonprofit Education Sector found that nearly 19 percent of all public education spending in America goes towards things like seniority-based pay increases and outsized benefits. If these provisions were done away with, the report found, $77 billion in education money would be freed up for initiatives that could actually improve learning, like paying high-performing teachers more money.

Absent Teachers Reserve Pool....is that like those rooms set up for the Autoworkers?

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

LOL
Who suggested putting zero into education? The amount of money keeps increasing yet the quality of education keeps decreasing. I guess we should just blame the kids?

It's a difficult task on the blame game. The fault is to be leveled at many people, unions included, but they are far, far from the only one's involved. Yes, you blame the kids too. If someone commits a murder, the shooter is to blame. What happened in his life to get him to the point where they commit a murder is irrelevant to some extent. You have to punish the shooter though many others were to "blame" or in some way "responsible" for his state. Same with kids in school. If they have virtually zero desire to learn, some of the blame is on them without question. No?? Education is a tough game...very, very tough in some areas of the country. Determining why every single kid who has no desire whatsoever to learn anything in the public school system is an impossible task that cannot and will not ever be solved.

I find the conservative attack on unions distasteful to the extreme. Yes, there are bad elements to them without question and that is not even a debatable point. That is human beings in a nutshell. Why would unions be exempt from distasteful human beings?? They aren't. But the whole gist of the attack on unions it is the desire of slave labor. that is all this is about. Dirt cheap labor is the goal and corporations have it and they ain't gettin it in America. corporations are doing fantastic without having to hire American workers. The initial goal of labor unions were very, very good and they did a lot, a lot of good. They were a prominent player in the explosion of the middle class in AMerica. It's now over. No one will work for slave wages in this country but they do in many other countries in the world. why in hell would steve jobs make an i-phone in this country when he doesn't have too?

The ultimate goal of destroying all unions that exist is the goal for a return to cheaper labor here. that is all it is. And if you really think the goal of destroying teacher unions is to reward "great" teachers you live in an alternate universe. No, it's cheap labor is all it is. You lose the "lavish benefits", and lose all collective bargaining, you get cheaper labor. And everyone knows that is all this is about but won't really admit it. They're afraid to do that. That is all it is about. For a group of politicians all over the country to promote the "fact" that public school teachers are living extravagent, easy, problem free lives simply for the purpose of pitting the rubes against each other is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever witnessed in my life. It's beyond sick.

The deficit theater is another high level comedy act that is better than Monty Python in it's level of comedy. The schtick being played out by Ds and Rs is masterful. They are perfectly on board with each other and playing all of us for fools and suceeding with aplomb. That people think there is one iota of difference in them is silly. That people think elections in this country have any meaning whatsoever is more comedy. The game is nearly over now. It's ok, medicare over, social security over, unions over, 7 wars at once....BAM--you-betcha!! Sarah Palin, Barrack Obama, Mitt Romney, John McCain. We would see zero difference whatsoever in any of them. zero. Geithner, Bernake--BAM--you betcha!! Austerity bitches, austerity!

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

The deficit theater is another high level comedy act that is better than Monty Python in it's level of comedy. The schtick being played out by Ds and Rs is masterful. They are perfectly on board with each other and playing all of us for fools and suceeding with aplomb. That people think there is one iota of difference in them is silly. That people think elections in this country have any meaning whatsoever is more comedy. The game is nearly over now. It's ok, medicare over, social security over, unions over, 7 wars at once....BAM--you-betcha!! Sarah Palin, Barrack Obama, Mitt Romney, John McCain. We would see zero difference whatsoever in any of them. zero. Geithner, Bernake--BAM--you betcha!! Austerity bitches, austerity!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

It's a difficult task on the blame game. The fault is to be leveled at many people, unions included, but they are far, far from the only one's involved. Yes, you blame the kids too. If someone commits a murder, the shooter is to blame. What happened in his life to get him to the point where they commit a murder is irrelevant to some extent. You have to punish the shooter though many others were to "blame" or in some way "responsible" for his state. Same with kids in school. If they have virtually zero desire to learn, some of the blame is on them without question. No?? Education is a tough game...very, very tough in some areas of the country. Determining why every single kid who has no desire whatsoever to learn anything in the public school system is an impossible task that cannot and will not ever be solved.

I find the conservative attack on unions distasteful to the extreme. Yes, there are bad elements to them without question and that is not even a debatable point. That is human beings in a nutshell. Why would unions be exempt from distasteful human beings?? They aren't. But the whole gist of the attack on unions it is the desire of slave labor. that is all this is about. Dirt cheap labor is the goal and corporations have it and they ain't gettin it in America. corporations are doing fantastic without having to hire American workers. The initial goal of labor unions were very, very good and they did a lot, a lot of good. They were a prominent player in the explosion of the middle class in AMerica. It's now over. No one will work for slave wages in this country but they do in many other countries in the world. why in hell would steve jobs make an i-phone in this country when he doesn't have too?

The ultimate goal of destroying all unions that exist is the goal for a return to cheaper labor here. that is all it is. And if you really think the goal of destroying teacher unions is to reward "great" teachers you live in an alternate universe. No, it's cheap labor is all it is. You lose the "lavish benefits", and lose all collective bargaining, you get cheaper labor. And everyone knows that is all this is about but won't really admit it. They're afraid to do that. That is all it is about. For a group of politicians all over the country to promote the "fact" that public school teachers are living extravagent, easy, problem free lives simply for the purpose of pitting the rubes against each other is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever witnessed in my life. It's beyond sick.

The deficit theater is another high level comedy act that is better than Monty Python in it's level of comedy. The schtick being played out by Ds and Rs is masterful. They are perfectly on board with each other and playing all of us for fools and suceeding with aplomb. That people think there is one iota of difference in them is silly. That people think elections in this country have any meaning whatsoever is more comedy. The game is nearly over now. It's ok, medicare over, social security over, unions over, 7 wars at once....BAM--you-betcha!! Sarah Palin, Barrack Obama, Mitt Romney, John McCain. We would see zero difference whatsoever in any of them. zero. Geithner, Bernake--BAM--you betcha!! Austerity bitches, austerity!

So the fact that teachers unions have strangled the life out of the education system in this country is due to human nature?

I wish you would have attempted a retort of the ridiculous waste of money caused by the unions for no good purpose other than self preservation and political gain instead of a rambling diatribe that shows great potential to have been aided by scotch.

The saddest thing is when people rush to defend the teachers unions is they do so in spite of the unions lack of help for those that they should be helping, the dedicated teachers and students.