Black Caviar at Royal Ascot Saturday AM

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by brockguy

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?

Disagreements make the world go round. I'm just glad you didn't have a temper tantrum and call me a slew of names.

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem. Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, and surely I am not familiar with Australian racing, but given the evidence I have witnessed in the sport, I am not ready to change that opinion. Doesn't make me right....but it's still my opinion.

As far as Timeform ratings, especially for American horses, given I don't have any idea how they are formed, and what factors are used, I am not inclined to pay them great heed in this case. I prefer to stick with what has worked for me. I'm not knocking them, I just don't understand them, therefore I can't use them to form my opinions.

I'm not trying to knock Black Caviar, and God knows I'm no big Zenyatta fan, but I still think her overall talent exceded that of Black Caviar. Like I said, it doesn't make me right, but someone is going to have to do a lot more to convince me otherwise.

In thinking about this, I ask myself how I would compare Zenyatta to Groovy, perhaps the best dirt sprinter I ever saw, and I'm not sure how I would answer. With all due respect, at their very best, I am not qualified to rate Black Caviar as highly as Groovy. Maybe she is better, but I can't evaluate any evidence that would say so. So maybe I shouldn't even have made the original analogy, though I still believe I am right, but I don't have a problem if someone feels otherwise. I feel much more strongly that Zenyatta wasn't one of the five best fillies or mares I ever saw race. That I could easily back up.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem.

Are you rating your esteem of Black Caviar on one race?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Disagreements make the world go round. I'm just glad you didn't have a temper tantrum and call me a slew of names.

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem. Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, and surely I am not familiar with Australian racing, but given the evidence I have witnessed in the sport, I am not ready to change that opinion. Doesn't make me right....but it's still my opinion.

As far as Timeform ratings, especially for American horses, given I don't have any idea how they are formed, and what factors are used, I am not inclined to pay them great heed in this case. I prefer to stick with what has worked for me. I'm not knocking them, I just don't understand them, therefore I can't use them to form my opinions.

I'm not trying to knock Black Caviar, and God knows I'm no big Zenyatta fan, but I still think her overall talent exceded that of Black Caviar. Like I said, it doesn't make me right, but someone is going to have to do a lot more to convince me otherwise.

In thinking about this, I ask myself how I would compare Zenyatta to Groovy, perhaps the best dirt sprinter I ever saw, and I'm not sure how I would answer. With all due respect, at their very best, I am not qualified to rate Black Caviar as highly as Groovy. Maybe she is better, but I can't evaluate any evidence that would say so. So maybe I shouldn't even have made the original analogy, though I still believe I am right, but I don't have a problem if someone feels otherwise. I feel much more strongly that Zenyatta wasn't one of the five best fillies or mares I ever saw race. That I could easily back up.

Groovy the best dirt sprinter you ever saw? I really didn't think there was anyone left who thought that.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Groovy the best dirt sprinter you ever saw? I really didn't think there was anyone left who thought that.

Who was better?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

He will tell you Phone Trick.

Nevermind the fact that they met on the track.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/21/sp...s-victory.html

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

He will tell you Phone Trick.

Nevermind the fact that they met on the track.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/21/sp...s-victory.html

Dude, I was there.

Phone Trick was great as well.

[Calzone Lord]

I wasn't

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

Chinook Pass

Midnight Lute

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Chinook Pass

Very doubtful. He was 0-for-3 lifetime in Graded Stakes races and got caught at Los Al in his California debut.

Maybe the fastest horse for a quarter mile or half mile of all-time -- but he does not belong in the discussion of all-time top dirt sprinters IMO.

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Very doubtful. He was 0-for-3 lifetime in Graded Stakes races and got caught at Los Al in his California debut.

Maybe the fastest horse for a quarter mile or half mile of all-time -- but he does not belong in the discussion of all-time top dirt sprinters IMO.

Laffit Pincay told me he was not only the best sprinter he ever rode, but one of the best horses period.

I think he very much does belong in that discussion.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Very doubtful. He was 0-for-3 lifetime in Graded Stakes races and got caught at Los Al in his California debut.

Maybe the fastest horse for a quarter mile or half mile of all-time -- but he does not belong in the discussion of all-time top dirt sprinters IMO.

You speak in ignorance with this one. The graded stakes race thing is meaningless. Racing was different back then (the way stakes were structured) and quite a few of those listed stakes are now graded. It's too bad you've never seen video of him run.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

Phone Trick, as Salami will no doubt say I am going to say. PT lost because of the instructions Mandella gave Pincay and he's blamed himself ever since.

Groovy, on a loose lead, was damn tough, but he was not the most consistent or gamest horse ever.

On the Line, once Lukas figured him out, was awesome. Lit De Justice ran races that could take your breath away.

I'd say those three, on their best days, would beat Groovy on his best day.

One could make cases for horses like Kona Gold, Chinook Pass, maybe Reraise (who knows how good he may have been?).

Phone Trick though? Wow.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Phone Trick, as Salami will no doubt say I am going to say. PT lost because of the instructions Mandella gave Pincay and he's blamed himself ever since.

Jorge Velasquez rode Phone Trick in NY.

Groovy, on a loose lead, was damn tough, but he was not the most consistent or gamest horse ever.

Groovy won 10 of 15 starts when he began sprinting in earnest. One of those defeats was in the Jerome going 8f. He beat the older Phone Trick as a 3yo before he was well-established.

On the Line, once Lukas figured him out, was awesome.

On The Line was running in route races all the way to the end of his career. For good reason, he did well in many of them.

Lit De Justice ran races that could take your breath away.

That horse could barely win 2 races in a row. Great turn of foot when he actually used it.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Jorge Velasquez rode Phone Trick in NY.


Groovy won 10 of 15 starts when he began sprinting in earnest. One of those defeats was in the Jerome going 8f. He beat the older Phone Trick as a 3yo before he was well-established.


On The Line was running in route races all the way to the end of his career. For good reason, he did well in many of them.


That horse could barely win 2 races in a row. Great turn of foot when he actually used it.

My bad on the jockey in NY. It was like 27 years ago and my take on jockeys are that they are mostly useless.

Everyone knew Groovy was a sprinter. Maybe you meant dedicated sprinter. He beat Phone Trick because Mandella thought it best to concede the lead to Groovy. Groovy didn't fare well when hooked by a quality speed horse, or worse, if he was forced to chase a quality speed horse.

On the Line was a sprinter by the end of his career. There is no doubt about that.

And yeah, Lit de Justice was a freaking nut case. When he fired, he was just about unbeatable (provided Nak didn't give him too awful a ride/trip).

I'm not saying Groovy wasn't a great sprinter. I just feel that there are a number of sprinters, that if all were on their best that day, would beat him.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

Pine Tree Lane?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Revidere

Pine Tree Lane?

Did you mean Very Subtle?

I don't remember PTL ever facing Groovy and beating him.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Did you mean Very Subtle?

I don't remember PTL ever facing Groovy and beating him.

She finished ahead of him, I think, in the 1986 BC at SA.

[Calzone Lord]

Gary Stevens was the worst at that. He had a new 'best horse I ever rode' every season.

Kent Desormeaux is pretty close as well. He was on a lot of good horses including Formal Gold in his prime -- and after the Preakness he called Big Brown the best he ever rode.

Mike Smith called Zenyatta the best he ever rode -- and that included Skip Away, Cigar, and Holy Bull among others.

Can anyone imagine Affirmed getting beat by 7 or more lengths at Long Acres on 3 different occasions? Or how about Affirmed getting caught late at Los Alimotis. Or, how about Affirmed finishing 5th at Turf Paradise.

I don't fault anyone for thinking Chinook Pass was one of the fastest horses ever for a half mile or so and he was definitely a great performer on a few occasions -- but he was a runoff and had a lot of bad races on his form.

I have no idea who the greatest sprinter ever was. Dr. Fager was pretty amazing sprinting. There are a lot of great sprinters throughout history starting with Roseben and ending with horses like Kona Gold and Midnight Lute.

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Gary Stevens was the worst at that. He had a new 'best horse I ever rode' every season.

Kent Desormeaux is pretty close as well. He was on a lot of good horses including Formal Gold in his prime -- and after the Preakness he called Big Brown the best he ever rode.

Mike Smith called Zenyatta the best he ever rode -- and that included Skip Away, Cigar, and Holy Bull among others.

Can anyone imagine Affirmed getting beat by 7 or more lengths at Long Acres on 3 different occasions? Or how about Affirmed getting caught late at Los Alimotis. Or, how about Affirmed finishing 5th at Turf Paradise.

I don't fault anyone for thinking Chinook Pass was one of the fastest horses ever for a half mile or so and he was definitely a great performer on a few occasions -- but he was a runoff and had a lot of bad races on his form.

I have no idea who the greatest sprinter ever was. Dr. Fager was pretty amazing sprinting. There are a lot of great sprinters throughout history starting with Roseben and ending with horses like Kona Gold and Midnight Lute.

He may not have been the best. But my all time favorite sprinter is Dancing In Silks

Hey. Here's something that might be fun. The interview I did with Pincay was in 2003 for a radio piece I did for his 50th birthday.

In that conversation he spoke of the 4 or 5 greatest horses he ever rode. Can you guess who they were? One caught me completely off guard.

Added note: Laffit is going to be a guest this year at the Handicapping Seminar at the Sonoma County Fair in Santa Rosa. He'll be appearing alongside Russell Baze on Sat. July 28. Over 21,000 wins sitting on one stage in Wine Country. The show is hosted by Frank Miramahdi and Michael Patricks. Pretty cool huh?