Black Caviar at Royal Ascot Saturday AM

[Calzone Lord]

The record time for 5 furlongs on turf here is Starfish Bay's 53.75 seconds. That's an avg furlong of 10.75 for the entire race.

She did it as a 4-year-old for Pletcher at Gulfstream in 2010.


http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=9

Raw times are always pretty useless without a variant. In the above example, the horses had a 150 foot running start till the timer was tripped.

I have no doubt Black Caviar has been the worlds best 5 furlong turf sprinter and is an all-time great at that specialist distance and surface.

A lot of Aussie and NZ breds have done very well in Europe. They've won 3 of the last 6 runnings of the Group1 King's Stand at 5f in England.

Black Caviar's only had one lifetime try beyond 6f and it was her least impressive race at home. She won a 7f Group 1 race easily -- but didn't run to the form of her typical wins. A Group 2 race also at 7fs was faster that day.

People go nuts for an undefeated record -- and couple that with a filly beating colts. She's obviously a great turf sprinter, but she's a turf sprinter. Never thought I'd see a turf sprinter get the love and hysteria that she gets.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Never thought I'd see a turf sprinter get the love and hysteria that she gets.

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

i think its cool she made the trip.and won wile things were stacked against her ie the going and her injury. very sporting of the connections..imo

I'm not willing to put synthetic horses on equal footing with turf horses. Whether it's 5 furlong specialists or routers.

I'd rather be wrong and say Black Caviar is a much better horse than Zenyatta.

And quite frankly if Zenyatta shipped to Ascot she would get drowned in a route race.

But again I'm lower on the know it all food chain so I digress.

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I'm not willing to put synthetic horses on equal footing with turf horses. Whether it's 5 furlong specialists or routers.

I'd rather be wrong and say Black Caviar is a much better horse than Zenyatta.

And quite frankly if Zenyatta shipped to Ascot she would get drowned in a route race.

But again I'm lower on the know it all food chain so I digress.

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

To be somewhat fair, Zenyatta lost on dirt by a head in the best dirt race in the world at the age of 6, and she easily won a very prestigious G1 race as a 4yo in her 4th career race. I hate how she was handled, but she was more than a synthetic horse.

[Riot]

I personally rate Black Caviar ahead of Zenyatta, too. Agree, it's difficult to compare sprinters with route horses. But the pure speed and power of an exceptional sprinter is exciting in it's own right. Caviar, IMO, has been more impressive over her career in her domination of all competition.

A lot of people can't appreciate a horse that can do 2 miles over 4-foot fences, either.

I think the point is to be able to realize you are watching an exceptional horse when you see it. And being able to appreciate that.

Originally Posted by cmorioles

To be somewhat fair, Zenyatta lost on dirt by a head in the best dirt race in the world at the age of 6, and she easily won a very prestigious G1 race as a 4yo in her 4th career race. I hate how she was handled, but she was more than a synthetic horse.

Like I don't know that?

I'm not willing to take those dirt races she had and compare them to 22 races of Black Caviar and say she's better

Zenyatta may have been better but her connections were blatant cowards. One trip over the rockies doesn't make up for how weak Jerry Moss was.

It's impossible to know who is actually better. And it's asinine that it was brought up in the first place.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Like I don't know that?

I'm not willing to take those dirt races she had and compare them to 22 races of Black Caviar and say she's better

Zenyatta may have been better but her connections were blatant cowards. One trip over the rockies doesn't make up for how weak Jerry Moss was.

It's impossible to know who is actually better. And it's asinine that it was brought up in the first place.

Get over yourself.

It is sweet seeing you and Riot agreeing here however. Maybe that's really what is bothering you.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

Lasix?

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by brockguy

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?

Disagreements make the world go round. I'm just glad you didn't have a temper tantrum and call me a slew of names.

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem. Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, and surely I am not familiar with Australian racing, but given the evidence I have witnessed in the sport, I am not ready to change that opinion. Doesn't make me right....but it's still my opinion.

As far as Timeform ratings, especially for American horses, given I don't have any idea how they are formed, and what factors are used, I am not inclined to pay them great heed in this case. I prefer to stick with what has worked for me. I'm not knocking them, I just don't understand them, therefore I can't use them to form my opinions.

I'm not trying to knock Black Caviar, and God knows I'm no big Zenyatta fan, but I still think her overall talent exceded that of Black Caviar. Like I said, it doesn't make me right, but someone is going to have to do a lot more to convince me otherwise.

In thinking about this, I ask myself how I would compare Zenyatta to Groovy, perhaps the best dirt sprinter I ever saw, and I'm not sure how I would answer. With all due respect, at their very best, I am not qualified to rate Black Caviar as highly as Groovy. Maybe she is better, but I can't evaluate any evidence that would say so. So maybe I shouldn't even have made the original analogy, though I still believe I am right, but I don't have a problem if someone feels otherwise. I feel much more strongly that Zenyatta wasn't one of the five best fillies or mares I ever saw race. That I could easily back up.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem.

Are you rating your esteem of Black Caviar on one race?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Disagreements make the world go round. I'm just glad you didn't have a temper tantrum and call me a slew of names.

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem. Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, and surely I am not familiar with Australian racing, but given the evidence I have witnessed in the sport, I am not ready to change that opinion. Doesn't make me right....but it's still my opinion.

As far as Timeform ratings, especially for American horses, given I don't have any idea how they are formed, and what factors are used, I am not inclined to pay them great heed in this case. I prefer to stick with what has worked for me. I'm not knocking them, I just don't understand them, therefore I can't use them to form my opinions.

I'm not trying to knock Black Caviar, and God knows I'm no big Zenyatta fan, but I still think her overall talent exceded that of Black Caviar. Like I said, it doesn't make me right, but someone is going to have to do a lot more to convince me otherwise.

In thinking about this, I ask myself how I would compare Zenyatta to Groovy, perhaps the best dirt sprinter I ever saw, and I'm not sure how I would answer. With all due respect, at their very best, I am not qualified to rate Black Caviar as highly as Groovy. Maybe she is better, but I can't evaluate any evidence that would say so. So maybe I shouldn't even have made the original analogy, though I still believe I am right, but I don't have a problem if someone feels otherwise. I feel much more strongly that Zenyatta wasn't one of the five best fillies or mares I ever saw race. That I could easily back up.

Groovy the best dirt sprinter you ever saw? I really didn't think there was anyone left who thought that.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Groovy the best dirt sprinter you ever saw? I really didn't think there was anyone left who thought that.

Who was better?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

He will tell you Phone Trick.

Nevermind the fact that they met on the track.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/21/sp...s-victory.html

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

Chinook Pass

Midnight Lute

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

Phone Trick, as Salami will no doubt say I am going to say. PT lost because of the instructions Mandella gave Pincay and he's blamed himself ever since.

Groovy, on a loose lead, was damn tough, but he was not the most consistent or gamest horse ever.

On the Line, once Lukas figured him out, was awesome. Lit De Justice ran races that could take your breath away.

I'd say those three, on their best days, would beat Groovy on his best day.

One could make cases for horses like Kona Gold, Chinook Pass, maybe Reraise (who knows how good he may have been?).

Phone Trick though? Wow.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

Pine Tree Lane?

[Calzone Lord]

Gary Stevens was the worst at that. He had a new 'best horse I ever rode' every season.

Kent Desormeaux is pretty close as well. He was on a lot of good horses including Formal Gold in his prime -- and after the Preakness he called Big Brown the best he ever rode.

Mike Smith called Zenyatta the best he ever rode -- and that included Skip Away, Cigar, and Holy Bull among others.

Can anyone imagine Affirmed getting beat by 7 or more lengths at Long Acres on 3 different occasions? Or how about Affirmed getting caught late at Los Alimotis. Or, how about Affirmed finishing 5th at Turf Paradise.

I don't fault anyone for thinking Chinook Pass was one of the fastest horses ever for a half mile or so and he was definitely a great performer on a few occasions -- but he was a runoff and had a lot of bad races on his form.

I have no idea who the greatest sprinter ever was. Dr. Fager was pretty amazing sprinting. There are a lot of great sprinters throughout history starting with Roseben and ending with horses like Kona Gold and Midnight Lute.