NYTHA Lasix Primer & Letter to NYS RWB

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Where have I ever said it was harmful? I am quite sure I have never said that. Feel free to keep making things up though.

Hey, you maintain it's a performance enhancer. Prove it. Use objective evidence.

My name is on multiple published, peer-reviewed research articles regarding the use of lasix in race horses. Guess what? I know 1000 times what you know about lasix in race horses. Probably more like 10,000 times.

So put up or shut up. You don't have the bona fides to back up your nonsense. I'm calling you out.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't doubt that you do think that. However, try passing that one off on people outside the game. Racing is legal now, but it doesn't have to always be that way. Our sport is headed for some heavy scrutiny and I really think the fact that nearly every horse in the US gets Lasix is not something that will go over well, no matter how innocuous it may be.

I dont live in a vaccum, I do speak to many people outside of the game. I have never had anyone raise any questions about lasix, ever. I have spoke to a number of people in the last year and posed the lasix question to them. Not a single person disagreed that if it is beneficial with few if any serious side effects it should be banned. The way it is being portrayed is far more dangerous to the game than its actual use.

I have been preaching for a long time that there are a whole lot of issues on the regulatory end that need addressing. I have been stumping for more effective deterrants to cheating both on Steves radio show, privately to officials and on this board. My greatest fear isnt that the game will be banned because that is unlikely but that the "changes" that these dolts at the TOBA and JC want to make wont have any effect except make the game more expensive for owners and players, 2 groups of which are becoming a rarer breed.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Where have I ever said it was harmful? I am quite sure I have never said that. Feel free to keep making things up though.

then what is the problem? it doesn't harm, it prevents harm...so why are you so adamant about it?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont live in a vaccum, I do speak to many people outside of the game. I have never had anyone raise any questions about lasix, ever. I have spoke to a number of people in the last year and posed the lasix question to them. Not a single person disagreed that if it is beneficial with few if any serious side effects it should be banned. The way it is being portrayed is far more dangerous to the game than its actual use.

I have been preaching for a long time that there are a whole lot of issues on the regulatory end that need addressing. I have been stumping for more effective deterrants to cheating both on Steves radio show, privately to officials and on this board. My greatest fear isnt that the game will be banned because that is unlikely but that the "changes" that these dolts at the TOBA and JC want to make wont have any effect except make the game more expensive for owners and players, 2 groups of which are becoming a rarer breed.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Yes, they will care, when breakdowns are rampant and drug use is widespread. Oh, they will care, at least long enough to ruin the game. You can count on that.

Lasix use has zero to do with breakdowns and breakdowns are hardly rampant. As I said before the way lasix is protrayed is far worse than any supposed negative effects.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

er, according to some, breakdowns are already rampant, and drug use is widespread.

I know they are, and the sport is getting more and more negative publicity put on it as slots become more prevalent. When the negatives of racing are featured in the New York Times, whether you like the articles or not, things aren't going well.

You think politicians aren't going to try to find every reason they can to kick racing to the curb and keep every slots dollar? Please. It is already happening in many places. If you think the "every horse needs drugs so they don't bleed" defense is going to help one iota, you are sadly mistaken.

The biggest problem horse racing has, and has always had as far as I can tell, is that the sport lives in the present with no foresight whatsoever. Almost every decision that is ever made is a short term patch and usually proved to have negative implications going forward. Having every horse receiving drugs before racing is not going to shine a good light on the sport when it needs it. We can argue until the next millennium if it should be seen as a negative, but it will be perceived that way no matter how many vets say otherwise. You can book that.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Lasix use has zero to do with breakdowns and breakdowns are hardly rampant. As I said before the way lasix is protrayed is far worse than any supposed negative effects.

Well, in the past decade we had around 12 tracks change surfaces because they were "safer". If breakdowns aren't an issue, why the change? We also had the recent rash of breakdowns in New York. We have similar happening every day around the country. The difference is not many people care about what is happening at Penn National or Prairie Meadows or Emerald Downs...yet.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I know they are, and the sport is getting more and more negative publicity put on it as slots become more prevalent. When the negatives of racing are featured in the New York Times, whether you like the articles or not, things aren't going well.

You think politicians aren't going to try to find every reason they can to kick racing to the curb and keep every slots dollar? Please. It is already happening in many places. If you think the "every horse needs drugs so they don't bleed" defense is going to help one iota, you are sadly mistaken.

The biggest problem horse racing has, and has always had as far as I can tell, is that the sport lives in the present with no foresight whatsoever. Almost every decision that is ever made is a short term patch and usually proved to have negative implications going forward. Having every horse receiving drugs before racing is not going to shine a good light on the sport when it needs it. We can argue until the next millennium if it should be seen as a negative, but it will be perceived that way no matter how many vets say otherwise. You can book that.

Sounds to me this is exactly the reason Lasix should not be banned. This would be a short term patch that doesn't even correlate to the objectives it seeks to cure.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by pointman

Sounds to me this is exactly the reason Lasix should not be banned. This would be a short term patch that doesn't even correlate to the objectives it seeks to cure.

Unless, of course, you include the very next sentence I wrote.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Unless, of course, you include the very next sentence I wrote.

I guess I have missed all the public outrage over the regulated use of Lasix in racehorses.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Unless, of course, you include the very next sentence I wrote.

I read it. You want to ban a drug that clearly helps race horses. And you're willing to pretend it does not help them, in the face of overwhelming evidence it does.

If we are going to help race horses, banning a drug that is proven to help them is moronic beyond belief. Period.

You and the "ban lasix" crowd have zero factual support for the false contentions that have been made about lasix, in support of the desire for a ban. This is dangerous to the sport. To it's very existence. The lying, the false contentions, the ignoring of real drug problems. Unbelievable.

We. Know. Better. The public can read Joe Drape, but the public can also learn better, as the information is right there at their fingertips. It can't be covered up, or hidden, or bullied into the background.

[RolloTomasi]

Does anyone know why administering sodium bicarbonate via nasogastric tube within 24 hours of a race is illegal?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Does anyone know why administering sodium bicarbonate via nasogastric tube within 24 hours of a race is illegal?

Yes.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

I read it. You want to ban a drug that clearly helps race horses. And you're willing to pretend it does not help them, in the face of overwhelming evidence it does.

If we are going to help race horses, banning a drug that is proven to help them is moronic beyond belief. Period.

You and the "ban lasix" crowd have zero factual support for the false contentions that have been made about lasix, in support of the desire for a ban. This is dangerous to the sport. To it's very existence. The lying, the false contentions, the ignoring of real drug problems. Unbelievable.

We. Know. Better. The public can read Joe Drape, but the public can also learn better, as the information is right there at their fingertips. It can't be covered up, or hidden, or bullied into the background.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a drug free sport. Horsemen took advantage of Lasix rules to the point the drug is overused, now they will have to suffer the consequences. If horses truly need drugs to race, we probably shouldn't have horse racing. Are there worse problems in racing? Of course there are. I don't have all the answers. But only in racing would drugging an animal every time it competes be passed off as "caring about horses".

I'm out.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Well, in the past decade we had around 12 tracks change surfaces because they were "safer". If breakdowns aren't an issue, why the change? We also had the recent rash of breakdowns in New York. We have similar happening every day around the country. The difference is not many people care about what is happening at Penn National or Prairie Meadows or Emerald Downs...yet.

Do you really think that tracks went to synthetic surfaces because of horses? C'mon get real. They wanted a "maintenance free" surface to save them money. I know for a fact that 2 of the tracks that hold TC races have had their track maintenance budgets cut since the advent of synthetic surfaces. There is no evidence that there is a rash of breakdowns everyday around the country. In fact there isnt evidence that there are more breakdowns now than 20 years ago since there is very little data from then but of course there is plenty of conjecture. You see the little issue that people seem to forget is that it wasnt so long ago that races werent available on tv or at simulcasting centers or on the internet. Charts werent readily available except for your local tracks. So of course it seems like less was happening them because you had so little information as compared to now.

Racing does a horrific job controlling the message especially on things like breakdowns which are impossible to spin especially without data.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Does anyone know why administering sodium bicarbonate via nasogastric tube within 24 hours of a race is illegal?

Because you arent allowed in most states to give anything via tube or needle including electrolytes within 24 hours except lasix.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a drug free sport.

Therapeutic drugs that help horses? Or illegal drugs that harm horses? There's a big difference. I completely agree with the second, not the first.

Horsemen took advantage of Lasix rules to the point the drug is overused,

You continue to mistake your personal opinion for some type of "fact".

Please. I wish the anti-lasix crowd would have the guts to stand up and just say the only thing they can: "I know lasix helps horses, but the perception of lay people with no vested interest in the sport is more important to me than our horses health and what veterinarians and scientists tell us is best for the horses health."

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a drug free sport. Horsemen took advantage of Lasix rules to the point the drug is overused, now they will have to suffer the consequences. If horses truly need drugs to race, we probably shouldn't have horse racing. Are there worse problems in racing? Of course there are. I don't have all the answers. But only in racing would drugging an animal every time it competes be passed off as "caring about horses".

I'm out.

I'm sorry but i cant understand how you can say you are neutral on the topic yet make posts like this. I also cant believe you drug yourself everyday and yet can pass judgement on those wishing to protect thier horses from a bleeding episode.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm sorry but i cant understand how you can say you are neutral on the topic yet make posts like this. I also cant believe you drug yourself everyday and yet can pass judgement on those wishing to protect thier horses from a bleeding episode.

Well, for one, I stopped drugging myself as soon as humanly possible. Second, I wasn't drugging myself so I could compete in a sport. I was doing it so I could walk. I have no idea how these are remotely related.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Because you arent allowed in most states to give anything via tube or needle including electrolytes within 24 hours except lasix.

I presume it's because there are negative implications associated with someone administering any substance to a horse on raceday.

Is sodium bicarbonate innocuous and/or beneficial to an athlete?