NYTHA Lasix Primer & Letter to NYS RWB

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that "forced to run with a drug" is a little over the top. I mean they are "forced" to do just about everything that they do. Lasix is about as innocuous a drug as you will find. The thing is that its preventative properties make it useful for all horses therefore making the statement "whether they need it or not" a bit misleading.

I don't doubt that you do think that. However, try passing that one off on people outside the game. Racing is legal now, but it doesn't have to always be that way. Our sport is headed for some heavy scrutiny and I really think the fact that nearly every horse in the US gets Lasix is not something that will go over well, no matter how innocuous it may be.

[Danzig]

try passing it off on people outside the game...what, they're suddenly going to care?
if by some strange chance someone outside the game asks me why horses are given lasix, i'll explain that horses can hemorrage due to fluid in the lungs while exerting themselves, and lasix prevents that.
or do you think these suddenly interested people aren't going to understand that? or as the article i posted the other day said would you rather withold hay and water for 24-48 hours and explain why that's ok?

as for waiting until a bleeding episode-as has been written and read by me and others, a significant bleeding episode can cause permanent damage. do you feel it's better to wait til a horse bleeds, and then just cross your fingers it's not significant enough to cause damage? or just go ahead and do what you know full well will prevent an episode and all that accompanies it?

i know if i had significant money invested, i'd rather prevent than hear an apology. you really think it's better to have preventable bleeding episodes than use lasix? you'd rather the choice be taken away? after all, it's currently up to each trainer or owner to decide. and the owner is the one ponying up all the money, whether to give beforehand, or possibly have wasted money by not paying for lasix and having a possibly lung damaged horse.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

try passing it off on people outside the game...what, they're suddenly going to care?
if by some strange chance someone outside the game asks me why horses are given lasix, i'll explain that horses can hemorrage due to fluid in the lungs while exerting themselves, and lasix prevents that.
or do you think these suddenly interested people aren't going to understand that? or as the article i posted the other day said would you rather withold hay and water for 24-48 hours and explain why that's ok?

and can you please answer if there is a way to tell if/when a horse can bleed? i would like to know. obviously if you can know when it would happen, you could then know who to give it to.
or are you ignoring the question because the answer is you can't ever tell until it happens?

Yes, they will care, when breakdowns are rampant and drug use is widespread. Oh, they will care, at least long enough to ruin the game. You can count on that.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Yes, they will care, when breakdowns are rampant and drug use is widespread. Oh, they will care, at least long enough to ruin the game. You can count on that.

er, according to some, breakdowns are already rampant, and drug use is widespread.
i bet many of the over 100k on hand may 5 in churchill knew nothing about o'neills several milkshaking violations, or other issues with racing officials. they just cared about having a good time.
i've got race photos in my office. i'll let you know the first time someone asks me about drugs. had them up for years, hasn't happened yet.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

er, according to some, breakdowns are already rampant, and drug use is widespread.

I know they are, and the sport is getting more and more negative publicity put on it as slots become more prevalent. When the negatives of racing are featured in the New York Times, whether you like the articles or not, things aren't going well.

You think politicians aren't going to try to find every reason they can to kick racing to the curb and keep every slots dollar? Please. It is already happening in many places. If you think the "every horse needs drugs so they don't bleed" defense is going to help one iota, you are sadly mistaken.

The biggest problem horse racing has, and has always had as far as I can tell, is that the sport lives in the present with no foresight whatsoever. Almost every decision that is ever made is a short term patch and usually proved to have negative implications going forward. Having every horse receiving drugs before racing is not going to shine a good light on the sport when it needs it. We can argue until the next millennium if it should be seen as a negative, but it will be perceived that way no matter how many vets say otherwise. You can book that.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I know they are, and the sport is getting more and more negative publicity put on it as slots become more prevalent. When the negatives of racing are featured in the New York Times, whether you like the articles or not, things aren't going well.

You think politicians aren't going to try to find every reason they can to kick racing to the curb and keep every slots dollar? Please. It is already happening in many places. If you think the "every horse needs drugs so they don't bleed" defense is going to help one iota, you are sadly mistaken.

The biggest problem horse racing has, and has always had as far as I can tell, is that the sport lives in the present with no foresight whatsoever. Almost every decision that is ever made is a short term patch and usually proved to have negative implications going forward. Having every horse receiving drugs before racing is not going to shine a good light on the sport when it needs it. We can argue until the next millennium if it should be seen as a negative, but it will be perceived that way no matter how many vets say otherwise. You can book that.

Sounds to me this is exactly the reason Lasix should not be banned. This would be a short term patch that doesn't even correlate to the objectives it seeks to cure.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by pointman

Sounds to me this is exactly the reason Lasix should not be banned. This would be a short term patch that doesn't even correlate to the objectives it seeks to cure.

Unless, of course, you include the very next sentence I wrote.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Yes, they will care, when breakdowns are rampant and drug use is widespread. Oh, they will care, at least long enough to ruin the game. You can count on that.

Lasix use has zero to do with breakdowns and breakdowns are hardly rampant. As I said before the way lasix is protrayed is far worse than any supposed negative effects.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Lasix use has zero to do with breakdowns and breakdowns are hardly rampant. As I said before the way lasix is protrayed is far worse than any supposed negative effects.

Well, in the past decade we had around 12 tracks change surfaces because they were "safer". If breakdowns aren't an issue, why the change? We also had the recent rash of breakdowns in New York. We have similar happening every day around the country. The difference is not many people care about what is happening at Penn National or Prairie Meadows or Emerald Downs...yet.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Well, in the past decade we had around 12 tracks change surfaces because they were "safer". If breakdowns aren't an issue, why the change? We also had the recent rash of breakdowns in New York. We have similar happening every day around the country. The difference is not many people care about what is happening at Penn National or Prairie Meadows or Emerald Downs...yet.

Do you really think that tracks went to synthetic surfaces because of horses? C'mon get real. They wanted a "maintenance free" surface to save them money. I know for a fact that 2 of the tracks that hold TC races have had their track maintenance budgets cut since the advent of synthetic surfaces. There is no evidence that there is a rash of breakdowns everyday around the country. In fact there isnt evidence that there are more breakdowns now than 20 years ago since there is very little data from then but of course there is plenty of conjecture. You see the little issue that people seem to forget is that it wasnt so long ago that races werent available on tv or at simulcasting centers or on the internet. Charts werent readily available except for your local tracks. So of course it seems like less was happening them because you had so little information as compared to now.

Racing does a horrific job controlling the message especially on things like breakdowns which are impossible to spin especially without data.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't doubt that you do think that. However, try passing that one off on people outside the game. Racing is legal now, but it doesn't have to always be that way. Our sport is headed for some heavy scrutiny and I really think the fact that nearly every horse in the US gets Lasix is not something that will go over well, no matter how innocuous it may be.

I dont live in a vaccum, I do speak to many people outside of the game. I have never had anyone raise any questions about lasix, ever. I have spoke to a number of people in the last year and posed the lasix question to them. Not a single person disagreed that if it is beneficial with few if any serious side effects it should be banned. The way it is being portrayed is far more dangerous to the game than its actual use.

I have been preaching for a long time that there are a whole lot of issues on the regulatory end that need addressing. I have been stumping for more effective deterrants to cheating both on Steves radio show, privately to officials and on this board. My greatest fear isnt that the game will be banned because that is unlikely but that the "changes" that these dolts at the TOBA and JC want to make wont have any effect except make the game more expensive for owners and players, 2 groups of which are becoming a rarer breed.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont live in a vaccum, I do speak to many people outside of the game. I have never had anyone raise any questions about lasix, ever. I have spoke to a number of people in the last year and posed the lasix question to them. Not a single person disagreed that if it is beneficial with few if any serious side effects it should be banned. The way it is being portrayed is far more dangerous to the game than its actual use.

I have been preaching for a long time that there are a whole lot of issues on the regulatory end that need addressing. I have been stumping for more effective deterrants to cheating both on Steves radio show, privately to officials and on this board. My greatest fear isnt that the game will be banned because that is unlikely but that the "changes" that these dolts at the TOBA and JC want to make wont have any effect except make the game more expensive for owners and players, 2 groups of which are becoming a rarer breed.