Black Caviar at Royal Ascot Saturday AM

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Never thought I'd see a turf sprinter get the love and hysteria that she gets.

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

i think its cool she made the trip.and won wile things were stacked against her ie the going and her injury. very sporting of the connections..imo

I'm not willing to put synthetic horses on equal footing with turf horses. Whether it's 5 furlong specialists or routers.

I'd rather be wrong and say Black Caviar is a much better horse than Zenyatta.

And quite frankly if Zenyatta shipped to Ascot she would get drowned in a route race.

But again I'm lower on the know it all food chain so I digress.

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I'm not willing to put synthetic horses on equal footing with turf horses. Whether it's 5 furlong specialists or routers.

I'd rather be wrong and say Black Caviar is a much better horse than Zenyatta.

And quite frankly if Zenyatta shipped to Ascot she would get drowned in a route race.

But again I'm lower on the know it all food chain so I digress.

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

To be somewhat fair, Zenyatta lost on dirt by a head in the best dirt race in the world at the age of 6, and she easily won a very prestigious G1 race as a 4yo in her 4th career race. I hate how she was handled, but she was more than a synthetic horse.

[Riot]

I personally rate Black Caviar ahead of Zenyatta, too. Agree, it's difficult to compare sprinters with route horses. But the pure speed and power of an exceptional sprinter is exciting in it's own right. Caviar, IMO, has been more impressive over her career in her domination of all competition.

A lot of people can't appreciate a horse that can do 2 miles over 4-foot fences, either.

I think the point is to be able to realize you are watching an exceptional horse when you see it. And being able to appreciate that.

Originally Posted by cmorioles

To be somewhat fair, Zenyatta lost on dirt by a head in the best dirt race in the world at the age of 6, and she easily won a very prestigious G1 race as a 4yo in her 4th career race. I hate how she was handled, but she was more than a synthetic horse.

Like I don't know that?

I'm not willing to take those dirt races she had and compare them to 22 races of Black Caviar and say she's better

Zenyatta may have been better but her connections were blatant cowards. One trip over the rockies doesn't make up for how weak Jerry Moss was.

It's impossible to know who is actually better. And it's asinine that it was brought up in the first place.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Like I don't know that?

I'm not willing to take those dirt races she had and compare them to 22 races of Black Caviar and say she's better

Zenyatta may have been better but her connections were blatant cowards. One trip over the rockies doesn't make up for how weak Jerry Moss was.

It's impossible to know who is actually better. And it's asinine that it was brought up in the first place.

Get over yourself.

It is sweet seeing you and Riot agreeing here however. Maybe that's really what is bothering you.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Get over yourself.

It is sweet seeing you and Riot agreeing here however. Maybe that's really what is bothering you.

That's hilarious coming from you of all people considering who you work for and what line of work you came from.

I know what I am, f.uckface. And I've been completely over myself for some time. You, on the other hand, are an a.sshole of epic proportions representing the biggest bunch of incompetent douches in all of horse racing. And to even bring up a synthetic specialist against a horse who runs on a traditional surface just shows how completely out of touch you are.

Yeah Geelong, Wolverhampton, and F.ucking Lingfield are the future of racing. GTFO with your nonsense.

[Calzone Lord]

I was more impressed with Black Caviar than I thought I would be when I spent the time studying her form, performances, and home competition the best I could.

She is a true killer at her specialist distance. It's hard to win by those type of margins in turf sprints and the caliber of turf sprinter in AUS and NZ are better than I assumed.

20 wins over males and splitting them open and running times that appear very fast for the track in a lot of cases.

Obviously fillies and mares have more success against the boys in sprint races than route races. A lot of female speed sprinters have performed outstanding in the BC Sprint and few have been tried. Fillies and Mares also have more success against males on turf than they do on dirt. It's obviously a lot more rare for females to do well in dirt routes than turf sprints.

Like BTW mentioned earlier in the thread, there is a value system in horse racing and it's very hard to put turf sprint specialists with racers in the upper echelon. They just aren't even close to being important relative to horses who compete in the big races between 8-to-12 furlongs.

To use a general sports analogy -- Mariano Rivera was GREAT at throwing one pitch (a cut fast-ball) and pitching one inning. He was a specialist. Black Caviar has done a lot of great things and looks impossible to beat going 5 furlongs. However, a closer in baseball is far more valued than a turf sprinter is in horse racing.

Closers like Dennis Eckersley and Eric Gagne have won Cy Young awards. You'll have players in the Hall of Fame for what they've done as a closer. Turf sprinters get absolutely no respect in American horse racing year-end awards and Hall of Fame voting. And in Europe, only one turf sprinter has ever been European Horse of the Year ... that was the mare Lochsong in 1993.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

Lasix?

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by brockguy

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?

Disagreements make the world go round. I'm just glad you didn't have a temper tantrum and call me a slew of names.

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem. Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, and surely I am not familiar with Australian racing, but given the evidence I have witnessed in the sport, I am not ready to change that opinion. Doesn't make me right....but it's still my opinion.

As far as Timeform ratings, especially for American horses, given I don't have any idea how they are formed, and what factors are used, I am not inclined to pay them great heed in this case. I prefer to stick with what has worked for me. I'm not knocking them, I just don't understand them, therefore I can't use them to form my opinions.

I'm not trying to knock Black Caviar, and God knows I'm no big Zenyatta fan, but I still think her overall talent exceded that of Black Caviar. Like I said, it doesn't make me right, but someone is going to have to do a lot more to convince me otherwise.

In thinking about this, I ask myself how I would compare Zenyatta to Groovy, perhaps the best dirt sprinter I ever saw, and I'm not sure how I would answer. With all due respect, at their very best, I am not qualified to rate Black Caviar as highly as Groovy. Maybe she is better, but I can't evaluate any evidence that would say so. So maybe I shouldn't even have made the original analogy, though I still believe I am right, but I don't have a problem if someone feels otherwise. I feel much more strongly that Zenyatta wasn't one of the five best fillies or mares I ever saw race. That I could easily back up.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem.

Are you rating your esteem of Black Caviar on one race?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Disagreements make the world go round. I'm just glad you didn't have a temper tantrum and call me a slew of names.

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem. Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, and surely I am not familiar with Australian racing, but given the evidence I have witnessed in the sport, I am not ready to change that opinion. Doesn't make me right....but it's still my opinion.

As far as Timeform ratings, especially for American horses, given I don't have any idea how they are formed, and what factors are used, I am not inclined to pay them great heed in this case. I prefer to stick with what has worked for me. I'm not knocking them, I just don't understand them, therefore I can't use them to form my opinions.

I'm not trying to knock Black Caviar, and God knows I'm no big Zenyatta fan, but I still think her overall talent exceded that of Black Caviar. Like I said, it doesn't make me right, but someone is going to have to do a lot more to convince me otherwise.

In thinking about this, I ask myself how I would compare Zenyatta to Groovy, perhaps the best dirt sprinter I ever saw, and I'm not sure how I would answer. With all due respect, at their very best, I am not qualified to rate Black Caviar as highly as Groovy. Maybe she is better, but I can't evaluate any evidence that would say so. So maybe I shouldn't even have made the original analogy, though I still believe I am right, but I don't have a problem if someone feels otherwise. I feel much more strongly that Zenyatta wasn't one of the five best fillies or mares I ever saw race. That I could easily back up.

Groovy the best dirt sprinter you ever saw? I really didn't think there was anyone left who thought that.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Groovy the best dirt sprinter you ever saw? I really didn't think there was anyone left who thought that.

Who was better?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

He will tell you Phone Trick.

Nevermind the fact that they met on the track.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/21/sp...s-victory.html

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

He will tell you Phone Trick.

Nevermind the fact that they met on the track.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/21/sp...s-victory.html

Dude, I was there.

Phone Trick was great as well.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

Chinook Pass

Midnight Lute

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Chinook Pass

Very doubtful. He was 0-for-3 lifetime in Graded Stakes races and got caught at Los Al in his California debut.

Maybe the fastest horse for a quarter mile or half mile of all-time -- but he does not belong in the discussion of all-time top dirt sprinters IMO.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was better?

Phone Trick, as Salami will no doubt say I am going to say. PT lost because of the instructions Mandella gave Pincay and he's blamed himself ever since.

Groovy, on a loose lead, was damn tough, but he was not the most consistent or gamest horse ever.

On the Line, once Lukas figured him out, was awesome. Lit De Justice ran races that could take your breath away.

I'd say those three, on their best days, would beat Groovy on his best day.

One could make cases for horses like Kona Gold, Chinook Pass, maybe Reraise (who knows how good he may have been?).

Phone Trick though? Wow.