Penn National arrests

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I still am trying to understand why trying to win is fraud.

trying to win isn't fraud. how is falsifying data and paying off a clocker trying to win?
trying to win by juicing a horse is fraud. or at least cheating.

i'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner, with all the rumblings the last few years. some people have been saying for some time that racing needed to do more, have consistent rules, have a way to punish the notorious cheaters.
well, someone got cheated, or knows somebody, or the feds just had enough-or saw an opening.
of course it all may lead to nothing. the feds don't win all their cases. but if these people end up found guilty, they have no one to blame but themselves.
tracks want people to bet-it would be in their best interest to keep things as honest as possible. they need to take a page out of the casinos book-they don't countenance anyone working the system, and they get lots of customers because of it. if a casino was perceived as having dealers working for and with certain customers, they won't have other patrons for long.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

trying to win isn't fraud. how is falsifying data and paying off a clocker trying to win?
trying to win by juicing a horse is fraud. or at least cheating.

i'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner, with all the rumblings the last few years. some people have been saying for some time that racing needed to do more, have consistent rules, have a way to punish the notorious cheaters.
well, someone got cheated, or knows somebody, or the feds just had enough-or saw an opening.
of course it all may lead to nothing. the feds don't win all their cases. but if these people end up found guilty, they have no one to blame but themselves.
tracks want people to bet-it would be in their best interest to keep things as honest as possible. they need to take a page out of the casinos book-they don't countenance anyone working the system, and they get lots of customers because of it. if a casino was perceived as having dealers working for and with certain customers, they won't have other patrons for long.

You seem to be missing the point. The impact on racing and the fact that there has been little or poor oversight isnt in question (Though 2 of the 4 were caught by state investigators)

My point is that don't they have to prove their case more than saying "oh they were going to give their horse an "illegal" treatment", that's fraud? Alan Pincus who apparently is going to be defending at least one of the accused has already made the statement that these are administrative issues, not criminal ones. Again I am not a lawyer but you'd have to believe that the burden of proving fraud has to be more than what we know considering the thousands of similar cases over a long time period haven't been criminalized.

[Cannon Shell]

And as far as the clocker is concerned is faulty equibase information really a felony?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And as far as the clocker is concerned is faulty equibase information really a felony?

Taking money to print phony workouts is not "faulty Equibase" information. There was intent to deceive here.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Taking money to print phony workouts is not "faulty Equibase" information. There was intent to deceive here.

But is that a felony?

If I have a horse that needs a 30 day work and I give the clocker $50 or $100 to put one in is that really a felony? (I have never given any money to a clocker nor do I know anyone who has so I'm guessing on the amount) That is abusing his power as a racing official but is equibase information really protected under criminal statutes? Yeah I get that they are using the open ended wire act argument but a large number of workouts listed are self reported so what standard there for accuracy or legitimacy of works?

Perhaps they can prove that he was using this information to deceive for personal betting purposes but is simply deceiving for relatively minor amounts of money worthy of Federal prosecution? I mean I'm not defending the guy because he clearly did wrong but this potentially seems like very small potatoes for a Federal case.

Losing his job? Getting hefty fine? Lengthy suspension? Made ineligible to hold similar position again? Sure. Federal Felony? Not so sure.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Losing his job? Getting hefty fine? Lengthy suspension? Made ineligible to hold similar position again? Sure. Federal Felony? Not so sure.

I agree with that. I'm going to wait and see what these guys are actually convicted of and what the punishments are before I say much more. Things have run amok in this game far too long, and I'm guessing a few are going to be held up as scapegoats in an attempt to clean it up.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I agree with that. I'm going to wait and see what these guys are actually convicted of and what the punishments are before I say much more. Things have run amok in this game far too long, and I'm guessing a few are going to be held up as scapegoats in an attempt to clean it up.

that's what i'm figuring as well, that they are being used to set an example.
tracks are supposed to be controlled by their states commission. things have been allowed to slide for too long. there has to be consistent rules, and fitting punishment and fines. and jokers who repeatedly violate should be out of the sport. does racing really need patrick biancone for example? jeff mullins? asmussen? if it takes a few heads to roll to let people know they can't keep getting hands slapped and nothing more, so be it.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I am reading through this thread, and you have asked this question more than once.

The way I am reading it, you are using the word "felony" as synonymous with "serious crime" or a similar term.

A "felony" is defined, by the Federal government and many states, as a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.

The term is not a matter of the relative severity of the illegal act itself, but as a matter of the potential sentence. (Clearly, the greater the relative severity of the crime, the more likely it will be classified as a felony.)

The question is - is it wire fraud?

As one would expect from reading the indictment, the feds clearly think it is, which justifies their involvement.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I am reading through this thread, and you have asked this question more than once.

The way I am reading it, you are using the word "felony" as synonymous with "serious crime" or a similar term.

A "felony" is defined, by the Federal government and many states, as a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.

The term is not a matter of the relative severity of the illegal act itself, but as a matter of the potential sentence. (Clearly, the greater the relative severity of the crime, the more likely it will be classified as a felony.)

Is this a crime that could potentially result in more than years worth of imprisonment for the accused?

Better?

[Danzig]

i guess we're going to find out.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Is this a crime that could potentially result in more than years worth of imprisonment for the accused?

Sure, why not? Where do you draw the line if this isn't worth a year?

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Taking money to print phony workouts is not "faulty Equibase" information. There was intent to deceive here.

Are all those tracks that you keep saying are providing wrong timed races...even after you have said that you have brought it to their attention, committing a felony? That information is going straight to equibase, even though they know it is wrong and you know it is wrong. Is someone trying to deceive the betting public...they've been made aware yet wrong times continue to be submitted? Is someone betting those races and benefiting, knowing the times are wrong.

I'm just asking because you are obviously really tuned into the timing and numbers of races with Timeform. Do you think anyone can benefit betting these races, knowing the information is faulty?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Are all those tracks that you keep saying are providing wrong timed races...even after you have said that you have brought it to their attention, committing a felony? That information is going straight to equibase, even though they know it is wrong and you know it is wrong. Is someone trying to deceive the betting public...they've been made aware yet wrong times continue to be submitted? Is someone betting those races and benefiting, knowing the times are wrong.

I'm just asking because you are obviously really tuned into the timing and numbers of races with Timeform. Do you think anyone can benefit betting these races, knowing the information is faulty?

I think it could be argued they are deceiving the public and IMO its wrong and have taken that stance by not correcting it.

For it to be a crime though doesn't there have to be willful deceit not just negligence or difference of opinion.

[OldDog]

Allowing that I am unfamiliar, thankfully, with grand jury indictments, I notice that the indictments against Webb and Rogers refer specifically to one alleged act of injecting a specific horse, while the indictment against Wells lays out a more general scenario with no references to specific dates, horses or medications. Are both situations "normal" for grand jury indictments?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Are all those tracks that you keep saying are providing wrong timed races...even after you have said that you have brought it to their attention, committing a felony? That information is going straight to equibase, even though they know it is wrong and you know it is wrong. Is someone trying to deceive the betting public...they've been made aware yet wrong times continue to be submitted? Is someone betting those races and benefiting, knowing the times are wrong.

I'm just asking because you are obviously really tuned into the timing and numbers of races with Timeform. Do you think anyone can benefit betting these races, knowing the information is faulty?

I don't think this is the same thing, though of course I'm all for proper times making it into the PPs. While there are wrong times, I don't think anyone is doing it on purpose.

Now, in the Pacific Classic, there is 100% irrefutable proof the time is wrong, and yet they still stuck by it. If you back up the video from the finish line by the "official" time, the horses are still inside the stall. But those guys claim there is nothing "wrong" with the time, so I'm not sure what else you can do. Is it criminal that they are not very smart, at least in regards to timing races?

[dellinger63]

Saw that all except the clocker were released on a $25K unsecured bond and forfeiture of passports. All have no conditions other than David Wells who can drink but can't drink 'excessively'.

IMO Alan Pincus's email being kelso64200@yahoo.com is the most interesting tidbit coming out so far.

Oh and cheating to try and win a race is far different to cheating to try to lose a race. Just ask Pete Rose.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And as far as the clocker is concerned is faulty equibase information really a felony?

taking bribes to falsify info is. there's error, and there's intentionally conspiring. did they do so to defraud bettors? no, sounds more like they were trying to have works for horses who didn't work as a way to get around track officials.....but when doing so, they defrauded bettors. it wasn't intent, but it was a side effect of that conspiracy.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Danzig

taking bribes to falsify info is. there's error, and there's intentionally conspiring. did they do so to defraud bettors? no, sounds more like they were trying to have works for horses who didn't work as a way to get around track officials.....but when doing so, they defrauded bettors. it wasn't intent, but it was a side effect of that conspiracy.

So are you saying that a trainer that decides to work his horse on the slow side purposely, (to probably inflate his price next time out) should possibly be charged with a felony too?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

So are you saying that a trainer that decides to work his horse on the slow side purposely, (to probably inflate his price next time out) should possibly be charged with a felony too?

of course not. and i'm not even saying anyone charged in these cases we're discussing should have been charged.
now, if the trainer works him slow and then pays the clocker to put in a false time....well, now we're in new territory.
if you work the horse and he has the time, it's for the bettor to decipher.
if you have a conspiracy, bribery, and willful intent, don't be surprised if there's a knock at the door.
there's a line, they crossed it. did the guy paying the clocker think about all this? probably not. but you can bet everyone is thinking about it now.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You seem to be missing the point. The impact on racing and the fact that there has been little or poor oversight isnt in question (Though 2 of the 4 were caught by state investigators)

My point is that don't they have to prove their case more than saying "oh they were going to give their horse an "illegal" treatment", that's fraud? Alan Pincus who apparently is going to be defending at least one of the accused has already made the statement that these are administrative issues, not criminal ones. Again I am not a lawyer but you'd have to believe that the burden of proving fraud has to be more than what we know considering the thousands of similar cases over a long time period haven't been criminalized.

it is possible that it's a stretch to say it's fraud, but since the cheating can gyp bettors, i can see why they're trying to go that route. you're betting based on info given, and assuming a level field. cheaters are not just affecting race outcome, but wagering outcome.
it reminds me of capone. they couldn't prove criminal conspiracy, but they got him on tax evasion.