Penn National arrests

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Gotta start higher so they can plead down. That's the game.

Yeah and squeeze him for info probably

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont believe there is a big difference if the timing company/tracks have been alerted that the accuracy of the times are wrong. If you are knowingly producing and offering faulty times to people using the information to bet over state lines then surely you could be held liable no? People from this board have been talking about this subject for awhile and always expressed frustration that the tracks would rarely even respond when alerted to the issue.

Supposedly the Feds were tipped off about misdeeds at Penn natl right around the Gill issue. I doubt they really care much about racing or the track but an eager Federal prosecutor saw an easy way to pad his record. Busting semi-broke trainers who dont have lawyers on retainers on Federal fraud charges is like a walkover.

i would have to think that this will be a real 'come to jesus' moment for many involved in racing.
typically an entity will try to find a really good case as a test case, to try to set precedent. i would have to think any trainer or any track personnel is taking a long, hard look at how they function, and whether changes should be made.
does anyone really want the feds involved? probably not. but these subjects have been hashed out repeatedly, with no real changes made, because no one has had the power to change things.

i have to think someone made this call to the feds to get this going, because no one else either had the ability or the wherewithall to make a profound change.

and of course the case is cherry picked, chuck. that's how this stuff is done. they won't waste their time on a case that might not go their way. somebody has to be the poster child.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I find it hard to believe that a clocker putting faulty works in the database would be considered willfully committing a criminal act. Virtually every "late work" announced at every track would be crime. That isnt condoning misinformation but I think it is a real stretch to make these criminal acts. Hell every year at Derby time we get Derby horses clocked with different times by different clockers.

there's faulty times, and there's taking money to falsify works, alter times, enter horses as having worked when they didn't step foot on the track. he didn't make a mistake, he's been charged with taking money to falsify info. big difference.

How is posting a false or misleading workout time a crime? Are these times monitored by a government agency? Granted its wrong but the worst case, he should be fired and never be able to work that position anywhere.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there's faulty times, and there's taking money to falsify works, alter times, enter horses as having worked when they didn't step foot on the track. he didn't make a mistake, he's been charged with taking money to falsify info. big difference.

We are probably talking like $50 for a work.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

How is posting a false or misleading workout time a crime? Are these times monitored by a government agency? Granted its wrong but the worst case, he should be fired and never be able to work that position anywhere.

this isn't just a case of a mistake. he took money for multiple fake times, fake workouts where the horse didn't even touch the track. so now it's bribery, etc. he's a track official, and repeatedly altered info that bettors use to decide wagers.

people complain all the time about bad workouts, mistimes in both works and races. this guy did it on purpose for financial gain, and now he's being defended? that doesn't make sense.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We are probably talking like $50 for a work.

hey, i didn't say the guy was a genius.

how many works? is taking a couple bribes ok, but ten isn't? or is 99 ok, but not 100? it's like the joke where a guy asks a woman to have sex with him for a hundred bucks.
a hundred? no way.
he offers five hundred. no
he offers a thousand. she says no.
he offers ten thousand, she says ok.
they have sex, he hands her $500. she says 'what do you think i am?'
he says that's been established, now we're just talking price.

the guy has no ethics, and took bribes to alter info. is one or two ok? if he only made a couple hundred, no biggie? would i believe him if he said it was only so money? no. he's crooked (allegedly of course).

again, there have been countless conversations here and elsewhere about issues plaguing this sport. now a case is filed. i don't feel bad for any of those charged. if it alters others' behavior, even better.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Danzig

hey, i didn't say the guy was a genius.

how many works? is taking a couple bribes ok, but ten isn't? or is 99 ok, but not 100? it's like the joke where a guy asks a woman to have sex with him for a hundred bucks.
a hundred? no way.
he offers five hundred. no
he offers a thousand. she says no.
he offers ten thousand, she says ok.
they have sex, he hands her $500. she says 'what do you think i am?'
he says that's been established, now we're just talking price.

the guy has no ethics, and took bribes to alter info. is one or two ok? if he only made a couple hundred, no biggie? would i believe him if he said it was only so money? no. he's crooked (allegedly of course).

again, there have been countless conversations here and elsewhere about issues plaguing this sport. now a case is filed. i don't feel bad for any of those charged. if it alters others' behavior, even better.

So what about all the prior misleading workouts being published around other racetracks? The stakes horse supposedly working at Monmouth when he was stabled at Aqueduct and working under a different name? Was that really fraud? How about all the late workouts announced at the track prior to a race, because the horse didn't have a published work in the required say 30-60 days...who is guilty of fraud there? Who allowed the work to be ok'd and the horse to run?

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Danzig

this isn't just a case of a mistake. he took money for multiple fake times, fake workouts where the horse didn't even touch the track. so now it's bribery, etc. he's a track official, and repeatedly altered info that bettors use to decide wagers.

people complain all the time about bad workouts, mistimes in both works and races. this guy did it on purpose for financial gain, and now he's being defended? that doesn't make sense.

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

What else can the public refer to when making bets? Magic 8-ball or Todd Schrupp? I believe he should be charged of a crime for misleading the public with his infinite wisdom of handicapping

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

What else can the public refer to when making bets? Magic 8-ball or Todd Schrupp?

Do you ever read where Steve mentions the private clocker reports? There's a reason people pay a premium for those reports...they're far more accurate and legit.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

The published workout info in the program/pp's in the vast vast majority of the time is accurate...however it tells such a small part of the story that using it as a significant handicapping factor is certainly risky. Private clocker reports clearly can offer value due to the additional information that they provide. This additional info which includes splits, outs, rider encouragement, workmates, and other info is not free....you have to pay for the private reports. Keep in mind that private reports are not regulated and are not without inaccuracies and/or incomplete info

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Do you ever read where Steve mentions the private clocker reports? There's a reason people pay a premium for those reports...they're far more accurate and legit.

More detailed definitely yes...more legit, I disagree...more accurate, definitely not in so far as comparing final times.
If you have ever been to the morning works, then you would agree that right after the harrow breaks it can get extremely busy. Without a prior heads-up as to who is working and from what pole they will be breaking from it is impossible to get all the works properly timed...the program/pp's have accurate final times...usually more accurate than the private reports due to positioning of the official clockers. Private clockers (more often than the official clockers) also can miss early portions of a work..ie they get a half mile as opposed to 5f...
I'm not saying nor am I naïve enough to believe that all official workout info is completely accurate..but just like official race times the vast majority of the times the info is in fact accurate.
Once again without splits, outs, observation of horse/rider, ect ect...the final time of a workout provides limited value

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

More detailed definitely yes...more legit, I disagree...more accurate, definitely not in so far as comparing final times.
If you have ever been to the morning works, then you would agree that right after the harrow breaks it can get extremely busy. Without a prior heads-up as to who is working and from what pole they will be breaking from it is impossible to get all the works properly timed...the program/pp's have accurate final times...usually more accurate than the private reports due to positioning of the official clockers. Private clockers (more often than the official clockers) also can miss early portions of a work..ie they get a half mile as opposed to 5f...

Point taken. I still disagree with the bolded part above...I'm sure most are but there are plenty that are fabricated. What do you say in regard to the late workouts not published in the program that are announced at the racetrack prior to a race being run...ie. horses who haven't had a published work in say the last 30-60 days prior to running in a race that day? How accurate do you think they are?

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Point taken. I still disagree with the bolded part above...I'm sure most are but there are plenty that are fabricated. What do you say in regard to the late workouts not published in the program that are announced at the racetrack prior to a race being run...ie. horses who haven't had a published work in say the last 30-60 days prior to running in a race that day?

Any horse that has not raced in the last 30 days and only shows one work is probably not one that I want to bet on.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

Any horse that has not raced in the last 30 days and only shows one work is probably not one that I want to bet on.

That's not my point though. How accurate do you think those works are when they show up in the PP's the next time the horse runs? The work which was just announced over the loudspeaker prior to the horse running, in order for him to be eligible that day. The workouts in the program are not near always accurate.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

That's not my point though. How accurate do you think those works are when they show up in the PP's the next time the horse runs? The work which was just announced over the loudspeaker prior to the horse running, in order for him to be eligible that day. The workouts in the program are not near always accurate.

I wont question your assertion regarding announced late works...I also do not say program works are "always" accurate...I will maintain my assertion that the vast vast majority of program workout final times (while of limited value) are in fact accurate.

lol...btw was just listening to the churchill preview...they announced that a runner that last raced as an announced gelding is running today as a colt not a gelding...wonder if he got his back or someone else's...lol

[PatCummings]

The ultimate value of the information should not be in question. Value is always in the eye of the interpreter. But there is an official keeper of the data

I'm no lawyer, but I highly recommend everyone read the indictments, specifically of the clocker, if you haven't already. The federal involvement is made pretty clear. Here is my understanding...

1. The ability to bet on races from out of state is an exercise in interstate commerce, a power overseen by the federal government. This came through in the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978

2. The distribution of the signal across state lines is, essentially, a wire.

3. The feds allege, in the indictments, that attempting to or actually being caught injecting a horse with a substance that is prohibited, or at a time that is prohibited, is an act or an attempt to manipulate the outcome of the race.

4. As the race is distributed over "wire" across state lines, attempting to manipulate the outcome (or provide purposely incorrect information which is offered in the official record of the race and details of each horse, used by the bettors to draw their own conclusions), is deemed fraudulent - again, by the allegations put forth in the indictment.

Does it seem that hundreds of trainers or some number of clockers could be identified as in violation of the law, as it is attempting to be applied now? Yes.

Does it seem this is an attempt to set a new precedent, and thereby presumably clean-up the sport? Yes, absolutely...at least in someone's mind.

Paulick has the link to the indictments in his story:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...penn-national/

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

The ultimate value of the information should not be in question. Value is always in the eye of the interpreter. But there is an official keeper of the data

I'm no lawyer, but I highly recommend everyone read the indictments, specifically of the clocker, if you haven't already. The federal involvement is made pretty clear. Here is my understanding...

1. The ability to bet on races from out of state is an exercise in interstate commerce, a power overseen by the federal government. This came through in the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978

2. The distribution of the signal across state lines is, essentially, a wire.

3. The feds allege, in the indictments, that attempting to or actually being caught injecting a horse with a substance that is prohibited, or at a time that is prohibited, is an act or an attempt to manipulate the outcome of the race.

4. As the race is distributed over "wire" across state lines, attempting to manipulate the outcome (or provide purposely incorrect information which is offered in the official record of the race and details of each horse, used by the bettors to draw their own conclusions), is deemed fraudulent - again, by the allegations put forth in the indictment.

Does it seem that hundreds of trainers or some number of clockers could be identified as in violation of the law, as it is attempting to be applied now? Yes.

Does it seem this is an attempt to set a new precedent, and thereby presumably clean-up the sport? Yes, absolutely...at least in someone's mind.

Paulick has the link to the indictments in his story:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...penn-national/

So then...how about the horse Payson Dave just mentioned? Running as a colt today but last time was run under the listing that he was gelded? Where would that fall in all this?

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

So then...how about the horse Payson Dave just mentioned? Running as a colt today but last time was run under the listing that he was gelded? Where would that fall in all this?

It seems clear - what is intentional, what is accidental. Someone somewhere has to prove it. Which, to me, is why the allegation of paying the clocker to put wrong times in is the hook.