NY Task Force on Racehorse Health & Safety Report, Reccos

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

And therein lies the rub. Horses raced for a century with all this apparent lung damage

Your implication is that EIPH hasn't caused problems for race horses in the past before furosemide. False. EIPH has always harmed race horses.

EIPH has had the same effect on horses since it was first documented in text in the 1600's, and owners and trainers have simply always used methods other than furosemide to attempt to control it.

and were a much sturdier group of animals by far.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

Your implication is that EIPH hasn't caused problems for race horses in the past before furosemide. False. EIPH has always harmed race horses.

EIPH has had the same effect on horses since it was first documented in text in the 1600's, and owners and trainers have simply always used methods other than furosemide to attempt to control it.

I'm not doubting that. I'm just saying this "damage" isn't as severe as people let on. If it was, how do you explain horses racing successfully over 100 times in a career?

While Lasix does help sometimes with EIPH (nobody is denying that), it isn't a cure all and I think there are some negative effects as well. It certainly isn't the only reason horses don't last these days, but it is one of them. I also think it is one of the reasons horses don't recover as quickly as the once did. You know, like when horses could win the Triple Crown and throw in a prep between the Preakness and Belmont.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm not doubting that. I'm just saying this "damage" isn't as severe as people let on.

But it is. What makes you think it is not? We have thousands of necropies on horses that shows the damage. We have three centuries of horsemen writing about horses that bleed and don't have wind and quit and can't work.

If it was, how do you explain horses racing successfully over 100 times in a career?

What are you specifically talking about? Horses that raced before lasix? A century ago? Two centuries ago? Other methods were used to control bleeding before lasix. Many things were tried.

While Lasix does help sometimes with EIPH (nobody is denying that),

The hard science is that furosemide has about a 97% effective rate with horses that have been diagnosed with EIPH.

Current science: Virtually all TB racehorses have been found to have evidence of bleeding, thus we consider that rate of EIPH to be 100% in the TB race horse for practical purposes.

it isn't a cure all and I think there are some negative effects as well.

What negative affects concern you?

It certainly isn't the only reason horses don't last these days, but it is one of them.

There is zero scientific evidence that using furosemide shortens a horses career. There is hard proven scientific evidence that says use in race horses lengthens that career by diminishing lung damage.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

But it is. What makes you think it is not? We have thousands of necropies on horses that shows the damage. We have three centuries of horsemen writing about horses that bleed and don't have wind and quit and can't work.

I never said there wasn't damage. I just said this damage doesn't seem to effect the vast majority of racehorses. I've seen horses (like Lost Code for instance) have terrible instances of bleeding, add Lasix, and turn out to be great race horses. Just how much did that damage hurt him and others like him?

Originally Posted by Riot

What are you specifically talking about? Horses that raced before lasix? A century ago? Two centuries ago? Other methods were used to control bleeding before lasix. Many things were tried.

Yes, but obviously plenty of horses in those days were bleeding and nobody even knew it. Despite that, the horses could run much more often than today and recover a lot faster.

Originally Posted by Riot

The hard science is that furosemide has about a 97% effective rate with horses that have been diagnosed with EIPH.

That seems a little high to me. Is that being measured with the same tools used to diagnose EIPH in the first place? I find that very hard to believe.

Originally Posted by Riot

Current science: Virtually all TB racehorses have been found to have evidence of bleeding, thus we consider that rate of EIPH to be 100% in the TB race horse for practical purposes.

I guess it depends how hard you want to find something. I probably bleed in my lungs every time I jog too, and my knees swell and my feet hurt. But I'm not injecting myself (or taking anything else) to stop it.

Originally Posted by Riot

What negative affects concern you?

The effect of racing while somewhat dehydrated. I can think of no athletic activity where that is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Riot

There is zero scientific evidence that using furosemide shortens a horses career. There is hard proven scientific evidence that says use in race horses lengthens that career by diminishing lung damage.

How would you possibly have any evidence when virtually all horses race with the stuff anyway? Before Lasix was legal, horses lasted longer and raced more often. It certainly isn't the only reason, but it could be one of them.