Derby replaces graded earnings with point system

[Cannon Shell]

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

[Calzone Lord]

What about a point system for Horse of the Year?

It would be real hard to come up with a fair and competent one for that -- but if you had one -- maybe it could force some better racing match-ups.

A star like Zenyatta would have had to run in a race like the Big Cap, Pacific Classic, or Hollywood Gold Cup ... or at least win the Breeders Cup Classic to get Horse of the Year.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

Other than the guy who sends his horse to win the Delta Jackpot with the idea its his ticket to the Derby are people really running in two year old races with the idea "hey, I am going to run in this spot because it will give me graded earnings", or are they running in the race because its money and they think they can win it with a precocious developed two year old?

I would also argue we are already there as far as the new way horses are being brought along for the Triple Crown, look no further than Bafferts Bode and Paynter.

What I am hoping is that you have a decent two year old with say 15 points, that they dont just map a 2 race campaign because they already have the earnings. If you do that and have a couple bad trips you could be screwed. Maybe it forces the more traditional 3 or 4 race campaign to ensure enough points. We need horses running more, not less.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Other than the guy who sends his horse to win the Delta Jackpot with the idea its his ticket to the Derby are people really running in two year old races with the idea "hey, I am going to run in this spot because it will give me graded earnings", or are they running in the race because its money and they think they can win it with a precocious developed two year old?

I would also argue we are already there as far as the new way horses are being brought along for the Triple Crown, look no further than Bafferts Bode and Paynter.

What I am hoping is that you have a decent two year old with say 15 points, that they dont just map a 2 race campaign because they already have the earnings. If you do that and have a couple bad trips you could be screwed. Maybe it forces the more traditional 3 or 4 race campaign to ensure enough points. We need horses running more, not less.

Believe me owners/trainers are very aware of the graded earnings in those races. Because CD chose to make those races so worthless I can't help but feel that many will take a pass on any type of real campaign (which nowdays would be 4 races). I think that that the trend of starting horses later will grow especially with GP opening in December. IMO that is not a positive trend. Sure it isn't like the Champagne won't be run but the quality of fields in these types of fall races outside of the BC will surely be negatively impacted over time. Especially when you can follow the Hansen model of running twice against crows and winning the BC and being champion. More or less they are turning the BC juvy into the end all-be all for the 2 yo division (not that it wasnt heading that way anyway) but we will see a mad scamble in Jan-April as untested, under raced horses are tossed into the fire to grab some points. I realize that we have been trending this way but by making the big preps worth 10 times more than every qualifying stake run before Feb you are going to accelerate that trend. And i just cant think that this is a positive.

[XIIPointStables]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Believe me owners/trainers are very aware of the graded earnings in those races. Because CD chose to make those races so worthless I can't help but feel that many will take a pass on any type of real campaign (which nowdays would be 4 races). I think that that the trend of starting horses later will grow especially with GP opening in December. IMO that is not a positive trend. Sure it isn't like the Champagne won't be run but the quality of fields in these types of fall races outside of the BC will surely be negatively impacted over time. Especially when you can follow the Hansen model of running twice against crows and winning the BC and being champion. More or less they are turning the BC juvy into the end all-be all for the 2 yo division (not that it wasnt heading that way anyway) but we will see a mad scamble in Jan-April as untested, under raced horses are tossed into the fire to grab some points. I realize that we have been trending this way but by making the big preps worth 10 times more than every qualifying stake run before Feb you are going to accelerate that trend. And i just cant think that this is a positive.

As a race fan this is one of the two big red-flags I see with the plan. Love the 2 yo races at Saratoga and wonder if these races won't be as juicy, as trainers start later/aim later for the races with more points. And would have thought races like the Hopeful and Del Mar Futurity would have some points attached.

The other red flag is CDI being able to to decide what races are important to qualify for the most well-known race in our sport in the US. Lot of power there. Poor Hawthorne got crushed with this thing and as others as posted, probably on purpose.

[Travis Stone]

The idea that suddenly NYRA will only have one 2yo race per week and 4 horses in their 2yo stakes at Saratoga because of this new Derby system is funny.

And I also cannot imagine any trainer with a talented horse will ever say, "Let's wait until February to start, so we can break our Maiden, and then get a nifty stakes score in March, stay undefeated via the 100 pointer in April and win the Derby." That might be more silly.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The idea that suddenly NYRA will only have one 2yo race per week and 4 horses in their 2yo stakes at Saratoga because of this new Derby system is funny.

And I also cannot imagine any trainer with a talented horse will ever say, "Let's wait until February to start, so we can break our Maiden, and then get a nifty stakes score in March, stay undefeated via the 100 pointer in April and win the Derby." That might be more silly.

Really? So you think that trainers/owners will just continue to do the same thing? You don't believe that a impressive maiden winner at Saratoga won't be treated differently knowing that the next 5 months are pretty irrelevant in terms of earning points towards the Derby?

SO what is the incentive of getting the most points? At least offer a bonus for any horse that is in the top 5 (in points) AND wins the Ky Derby

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Really? So you think that trainers/owners will just continue to do the same thing? You don't believe that a impressive maiden winner at Saratoga won't be treated differently knowing that the next 5 months are pretty irrelevant in terms of earning points towards the Derby?

2YO racing in America right now sucks. The last two years the BC Juvenile was won by a horse who had 2 career starts. However, do you really think that those horses were campaigned as 2YOs with the Derby being their main focus? These changes did not take away the incentives that come with having a 2YO champion, having graded stakes wins as a 2YO, or winning a BC race.

If anything, the guys who tried to snag a graded stake with a 2YO then mostly put them on ice (Sabercat/Gemologist) would only be able to do so at risk of missing the Derby altogether.