Derby replaces graded earnings with point system

[slotdirt]

So at first I was thinking the Illinois Derby thing was an oversight, but after more thought, it's basically a way for CDI to put Hawthorne out of business. And it's pretty shameful.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

So at first I was thinking the Illinois Derby thing was an oversight, but after more thought, it's basically a way for CDI to put Hawthorne out of business. And it's pretty shameful.

or are they just looking at historical value of the race? this years renewal didn't do much...i think war emblem is the only ky derby winner to ever come thru there.

[slotdirt]

I'd buy any argument if there weren't races like the freaking Smarty Jones included. Given that many other races aren't particularly historically significant (give me a break on the UAE Derby, for instance), there's really only one reason why they've excluded the Illinois Derby.

[jms62]

I think every mile and up graded race should count 2 and 3 year old not pick and choose. Scaling the points is fine since it basically is Win and you are in for the Grade 1 3 year old preps. One thing I would do is give the Breeders cup juvenile winner a free pass also. Usually that is the 2yo champ which should amount to something. The benefit is that he will take a lot of the early futures money.

[MaTH716]

Is this idea just an attempt to take focus off the more important lasix issue?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Is this idea just an attempt to take focus off the more important lasix issue?

and i still don't buy that two year old races should count. would a derby win at three be a win and you're in at four for the bc?

[slotdirt]

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

yeah, i know...i would like to know what criteria they used to decide who to use. i do like that there are no races under a mile under consideration. but i can certainly understand supporting keeneland races over hawthorne, if you had to choose. and i have to say that i am glad they recognize that all graded stakes aren't created equal, and that a huge purse doesn't equal a huge race.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

CDI wants earlier spring dates that Hawthorne currently has. I'm sure they would rather open a month earlier and have the Illinois Derby at Arlington. Then you will see a tweek to the scoring system.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by 3kings

CDI wants earlier spring dates that Hawthorne currently has. I'm sure they would rather open a month earlier and have the Illinois Derby at Arlington. Then you will see a tweek to the scoring system.

No doubt about it. I think their plan will backfire though.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by 3kings

CDI wants earlier spring dates that Hawthorne currently has. I'm sure they would rather open a month earlier and have the Illinois Derby at Arlington. Then you will see a tweek to the scoring system.

I wonder, after they kill the race at Hawthorne, if they pick the race up and run it in the summer at some point. According to the website, Arlington doesn't have any 3 year old two turn races on the dirt (synthetic). They have turf races and the Arlington Oaks.

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

The Blue Grass and the UAE Derby have no business being in the 100 point category or considered beyond gr.3 anymore. But the Bluegrass is like Keeneland, it cant be fooled with. Since synthetic we have Monbar, General Quarters, Stately Victor and Brilliant Speed. No graded stakes on the dirt between them.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

The Blue Grass and the UAE Derby have no business being in the 100 point category or considered beyond gr.3 anymore. But the Bluegrass is like Keeneland, it cant be fooled with. Since synthetic we have Monbar, General Quarters, Stately Victor and Brilliant Speed. No graded stakes on the dirt between them.

At least recent versions of the Illinois Derby have produced a couple horses who went on to run well on dirt. Recapturetheglory wasn't exactly Exterminator (or Old Rosebud), but he had a couple post-IL Derby successes. What about Yawanna Twist? Giant Oak won the Donn and the Clark later in his career. That's not even mentioning other nice Illinois Derby runners like Magna Graduate or Suave.

[DaTruth]

I'm surprised that CDI didn't take the opportunity to give a boost to Fair Grounds by doubling the points for any horse that starts in the Louisiana Derby and either the Lecomte or Risen Star.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and i still don't buy that two year old races should count. would a derby win at three be a win and you're in at four for the bc?

The Breeders Cup Juvenile is almost always a championship deciding race. It features the best 2yo's from every region and some international raiders.

Derby preps -- are just that -- prep races for the Derby.

The Santa Anita Derby turned out to be the big prep race this year... Blueskiesandrainbows almost stole it on the lead and was beaten just a half length.

A lot of the serious Derby contenders are often rated a little more than you usual in Derby Preps and ridden to finish strongly.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The Breeders Cup Juvenile is almost always a championship deciding race. It features the best 2yo's from every region and some international raiders.

Derby preps -- are just that -- prep races for the Derby.

The Santa Anita Derby turned out to be the big prep race this year... Blueskiesandrainbows almost stole it on the lead and was beaten just a half length.

A lot of the serious Derby contenders are often rated a little more than you usual in Derby Preps and ridden to finish strongly.

no argument that the bc juvie is a big race. it's a just an opinion of mine that what a horse accomplished at two doesn't make him a top three year old. it makes him a top prospect for a three year old.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

So at first I was thinking the Illinois Derby thing was an oversight, but after more thought, it's basically a way for CDI to put Hawthorne out of business. And it's pretty shameful.

Obviously it was designed to hurt Hawthorne and to try and make the Illinois Derby irrelevant.

Sweetnorthernsaint was the post time favorite for the Kentucky Derby -- took more money from bettors than Barbaro.

He had 10 points and never would have got into the Kentucky Derby.

[slotdirt]

You can bet your sweet ass if the Illinois Derby was run at AP it would be a 100 point race.

[slotdirt]

I wonder if anybody at CDI gave the Breeders Cup a jingle before implementing a plan that could render the 2YO champion meaningless.