Derby replaces graded earnings with point system

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Is this idea just an attempt to take focus off the more important lasix issue?

and i still don't buy that two year old races should count. would a derby win at three be a win and you're in at four for the bc?

[slotdirt]

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

yeah, i know...i would like to know what criteria they used to decide who to use. i do like that there are no races under a mile under consideration. but i can certainly understand supporting keeneland races over hawthorne, if you had to choose. and i have to say that i am glad they recognize that all graded stakes aren't created equal, and that a huge purse doesn't equal a huge race.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

CDI wants earlier spring dates that Hawthorne currently has. I'm sure they would rather open a month earlier and have the Illinois Derby at Arlington. Then you will see a tweek to the scoring system.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by 3kings

CDI wants earlier spring dates that Hawthorne currently has. I'm sure they would rather open a month earlier and have the Illinois Derby at Arlington. Then you will see a tweek to the scoring system.

No doubt about it. I think their plan will backfire though.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by 3kings

CDI wants earlier spring dates that Hawthorne currently has. I'm sure they would rather open a month earlier and have the Illinois Derby at Arlington. Then you will see a tweek to the scoring system.

I wonder, after they kill the race at Hawthorne, if they pick the race up and run it in the summer at some point. According to the website, Arlington doesn't have any 3 year old two turn races on the dirt (synthetic). They have turf races and the Arlington Oaks.

[slotdirt]

The racing calendar really needs more 3YO two turn races going over synthetics. I'm jazzed about that race if it ever comes to fruition.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The racing calendar really needs more 3YO two turn races going over synthetics. I'm jazzed about that race if it ever comes to fruition.

The way this sport continues to shoot itself in it's foot, nothing would suprise me.

It also will be interesting to see if the BC avoids Churchill for a few years based on this stellar plan.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

The way this sport continues to shoot itself in it's foot, nothing would suprise me.

It also will be interesting to see if the BC avoids Churchill for a few years based on this stellar plan.

No doubt. Or any CDI venue. They've basically rendered the BC Juvenile meaningless for all intents and purposes (aside from the big pot of dough).

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

The Blue Grass and the UAE Derby have no business being in the 100 point category or considered beyond gr.3 anymore. But the Bluegrass is like Keeneland, it cant be fooled with. Since synthetic we have Monbar, General Quarters, Stately Victor and Brilliant Speed. No graded stakes on the dirt between them.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

The Blue Grass and the UAE Derby have no business being in the 100 point category or considered beyond gr.3 anymore. But the Bluegrass is like Keeneland, it cant be fooled with. Since synthetic we have Monbar, General Quarters, Stately Victor and Brilliant Speed. No graded stakes on the dirt between them.

At least recent versions of the Illinois Derby have produced a couple horses who went on to run well on dirt. Recapturetheglory wasn't exactly Exterminator (or Old Rosebud), but he had a couple post-IL Derby successes. What about Yawanna Twist? Giant Oak won the Donn and the Clark later in his career. That's not even mentioning other nice Illinois Derby runners like Magna Graduate or Suave.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

At least recent versions of the Illinois Derby have produced a couple horses who went on to run well on dirt. Recapturetheglory wasn't exactly Exterminator (or Old Rosebud), but he had a couple post-IL Derby successes. What about Yawanna Twist? Giant Oak won the Donn and the Clark later in his career. That's not even mentioning other nice Illinois Derby runners like Magna Graduate or Suave.

The exclusion of the IL Derby is 100% politically motivated, see my last post on the issue

[Cannon Shell]

I have no problem with a point based, weighted system. However...this is hardly an ideal system that they have created over an 11 month period if you believe them.

The way this system is presented (regular season , championship season, wildcard) in nonsense and anyone with a half of a clue will see through it. CDI consistently tries to "think outside of the box" but rarely comes up with anything thing that works when it comes to anything regarding racing. Rather than try to use slogans and bullshit like this to convince people that they are having "seasons" like fantasy sports they should try to create an actual road to the Derby that makes sense and rewards trainers/owners/horses for actually participating more often.

I would use a weighted system starting w/Hopeful and Del Mar Futurity because not capitalizing on these great meets and the attention racing gets during this period is stupid. Have the next wave of races (Champagne, Norfolk, Breeders futurity) be worth a bump from the first races. Then have the Nov/Dec races be worth another bump with the BC Juvy obviously worth double points.

Then have the Jan preps be a slight bump from Nov/Dec races and so on with the big preps(SA Derby, ARK Derby, Wood, FL Derby, LA Derby, Bluegrass) worth double points but still include IL Derby and ridiclous UAE Derby as well.

CD can promote end of the month point standing with bonus money with horses with top number of points getting nice bonus if wins Derby.

You can still designate the races you want to include (ignoring graded system which seems to be important to them) and even allow a few races like Juvy Filly/euro race to earn some points though a lower amount.

This way CD can still play God by designating races that will count, still allow a really good filly in, lessen the marginalization of 2 yo racing that they have now created and promote standings so to speak for road to the derby instead of the current hodge podge of races with no real tie in to each other.

[Cannon Shell]

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

[Calzone Lord]

What about a point system for Horse of the Year?

It would be real hard to come up with a fair and competent one for that -- but if you had one -- maybe it could force some better racing match-ups.

A star like Zenyatta would have had to run in a race like the Big Cap, Pacific Classic, or Hollywood Gold Cup ... or at least win the Breeders Cup Classic to get Horse of the Year.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

Other than the guy who sends his horse to win the Delta Jackpot with the idea its his ticket to the Derby are people really running in two year old races with the idea "hey, I am going to run in this spot because it will give me graded earnings", or are they running in the race because its money and they think they can win it with a precocious developed two year old?

I would also argue we are already there as far as the new way horses are being brought along for the Triple Crown, look no further than Bafferts Bode and Paynter.

What I am hoping is that you have a decent two year old with say 15 points, that they dont just map a 2 race campaign because they already have the earnings. If you do that and have a couple bad trips you could be screwed. Maybe it forces the more traditional 3 or 4 race campaign to ensure enough points. We need horses running more, not less.

[DaTruth]

I'm surprised that CDI didn't take the opportunity to give a boost to Fair Grounds by doubling the points for any horse that starts in the Louisiana Derby and either the Lecomte or Risen Star.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and i still don't buy that two year old races should count. would a derby win at three be a win and you're in at four for the bc?

The Breeders Cup Juvenile is almost always a championship deciding race. It features the best 2yo's from every region and some international raiders.

Derby preps -- are just that -- prep races for the Derby.

The Santa Anita Derby turned out to be the big prep race this year... Blueskiesandrainbows almost stole it on the lead and was beaten just a half length.

A lot of the serious Derby contenders are often rated a little more than you usual in Derby Preps and ridden to finish strongly.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The Breeders Cup Juvenile is almost always a championship deciding race. It features the best 2yo's from every region and some international raiders.

Derby preps -- are just that -- prep races for the Derby.

The Santa Anita Derby turned out to be the big prep race this year... Blueskiesandrainbows almost stole it on the lead and was beaten just a half length.

A lot of the serious Derby contenders are often rated a little more than you usual in Derby Preps and ridden to finish strongly.

no argument that the bc juvie is a big race. it's a just an opinion of mine that what a horse accomplished at two doesn't make him a top three year old. it makes him a top prospect for a three year old.