Wisconsin Recall

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Unions are bullies then. That the majority of their forced membership would opt out of given a choice.

Obama will say or do anything to get elected. Which was the original point of my statement. The thug comment was more about seeing them take a public beating.

You parrot and foment hate terms. You repeat the hate terms deliberately used by ALEC this past year to turn members of the public against Wisconsin public school teachers, firemen and policemen. Falsely accusing them of violence, calling them "union thugs", justified suddenly violating contracts, justified taking their pensions and cutting their pay by 1/3, removing all negotiated salary protections they used to have, in favor of giving tax cuts to the wealthy and using the money that used to go to school teachers, policemen and firemen to plug the gap.

These are not "union thugs". These are school teachers, policemen and firemen who have served your community for decades, who have accumulated savings and pensions, who thought they could retire after a lifetime of hard work.

That's nasty. Think before you speak. There is a deliberate reason you were taught to use that term out of meaning. There is a deliberate reason ALEC and the RGA has told people to start referring to neighbors as "union thugs". It was so certain political people could benefit themselves with tax breaks, and you'd go along with using the lifetime of hard work of your neighbors, of your schoolteachers, policemen and firemen, to pay for it.

Because suddenly you were taught to view these people, not as your neighbors or protectors or the teachers of your children, but as nasty violent "union thugs" who deserved to lose what they'd spent a lifetime working for. Hate them! Unions are thugs! Take away all they have! They are the cause of all your financial problems!

Because rich people want tax breaks, and the money has to come from somewhere.

It's just a shell game. Teaching you to call your neighbors "union thugs", and blame your neighbors, enables it.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

These are not "union thugs". These are school teachers, policemen and firemen who have served your community for decades, who have accumulated savings and pensions, who thought they could retire after a lifetime of hard work.

They can just like everyone else. By contributing to their retirement like everyone else. Pensions are not reasonable for public companies and are definitely not reasonable for public employees. My father has been paid almost 2x what he made during his 25 years as a police officer since retiring. Pensions and UAW demands for the continuance of them are what killed the auto industry in Detroit. If you don't think something has to happen to the public version to continue the lifestyle you are a fool.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

They can just like everyone else. By contributing to their retirement like everyone else. Pensions are not reasonable for public companies and are definitely not reasonable for public employees. My father has been paid almost 2x what he made during his 25 years as a police officer since retiring.

Should your father's income be suddenly cut in half now, after he's retired? Should the contract he worked under be altered after the fact? After he's retired? Because that's what you are supporting. Not changing the contract for the future retirees - but changing it for people that have already retired.

And is your father a violent, evil union thug? Because that's what you call him.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

Should your father's income be suddenly cut in half now, after he's retired? Should the contract he worked under be altered after the fact? After he's retired? Because that's what you are supporting. Not changing the contract for the future retirees - but changing it for people that have already retired.

And is your father a violent, evil union thug? Because that's what you call him.

He and the other PBA members were known for their harsh negotiation tactics. If there is no money then there is no money. Most people understand that.
My parents taught me growing up that money didn't grow on trees. A good portion of the liberal population of this country never learned that lesson. Math is math and it cannot be changed.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

He and the other PBA members were known for their harsh negotiation tactics. If there is no money then there is no money. Most people understand that.
My parents taught me growing up that money didn't grow on trees. A good portion of the liberal population of this country never learned that lesson. Math is math and it cannot be changed.

But there is money. It's in your father's pension fund. It was contributed by him, and matched by the city, during his working life, it accumulated interest, and now it is to pay him what was promised him, for his lifetime of work.

I'll not allow someone to demonize your father, call him a freeloader and a union thug and a cheat living off the public teat, because some politician wants to steal his hard-earned pension to give tax cuts to his rich friends.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

But there is money. It's in your father's pension fund. It was contributed by him, and matched by the city, during his working life, it accumulated interest, and now it is to pay him what was promised him, for his lifetime of work.

I'll not allow someone to demonize your father, call him a freeloader and a union thug and a cheat living off the public teat, because some politician wants to steal his hard-earned pension to give tax cuts to his rich friends.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...-gain-support/

It just isn't feasible for the long term. Lets ask some other logical folks...

In Massachusetts last year, Gov. Deval Patrick has signed a pension bill that raised the minimum retirement age to 60, from 55. His newer effort aims to stop public workers from getting unemployment money while they’re getting pension payments.

In Rhode Island, Gov. Lincoln Chafee, who has already signed a pension reform bill into law, is seeking to let cities cut benefits to retired public workers. He’s drawn opposition from unions that have said they’d fight the proposal in court if necessary, while mayors have said the measure would alleviate budget pressures.

And in New York, Gov. Andrew Cuomo has tried to cut budgets by raising the retirement age for most government workers to 65 from 62, and lower the amount of money given to workers after retirement to 50 percent of their salary, from 60 percent. The left-leaning minds on the New York Times editorial board wrote that “those changes make sense.”

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...-gain-support/

It just isn't feasible for the long term. Lets ask some other logical folks...

In Massachusetts last year, Gov. Deval Patrick has signed a pension bill that raised the minimum retirement age to 60, from 55. His newer effort aims to stop public workers from getting unemployment money while they’re getting pension payments.

In Rhode Island, Gov. Lincoln Chafee, who has already signed a pension reform bill into law, is seeking to let cities cut benefits to retired public workers. He’s drawn opposition from unions that have said they’d fight the proposal in court if necessary, while mayors have said the measure would alleviate budget pressures.

And in New York, Gov. Andrew Cuomo has tried to cut budgets by raising the retirement age for most government workers to 65 from 62, and lower the amount of money given to workers after retirement to 50 percent of their salary, from 60 percent. The left-leaning minds on the New York Times editorial board wrote that “those changes make sense.”

not enough of a change in my opinion. those numbers ignore completely the fact that we live longer and longer....many pensions are still set at ages from decades ago, when most people didn't live to age 65. ss for instance. now, most people live to their 80's, and we've got more people attaining age 100 than ever.
it is unsustainable to have someone spend as much time in retirement as they did working.
it's not a matter of right and wrong, or fairness...it's simple math!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

It just isn't feasible for the long term. Lets ask some other logical folks...

It depends upon who has been guarding the pension money. Has it been safely held, accumulating interest over time, the principle intact, as it should have been?

Or have politicians scavenged it? Are they trying to scavenge it now, to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy?

It's easy to cut budgets on the backs of your neighbors. Especially when you are taught to demonize them and call them "union thugs".

Because if you don't do that, if you are not set on to attack each other, those neighbors may get together and wonder why, if we are so "broke", the wealthy are getting more and more tax cuts, and they get insulted when we question why "the job creators" can't pay a penny more, but a retired teacher has to have their pension cut in half?