Havre De Grace Retired

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I doubt it though. I actually follow racing instead of just pretending to.

good for you, i forgot you know so much about me outside of Nerdy trail.


what that supposed to be an insult or something?

[Antitrust32]

I guess spending my extra money on golf an vacations (mostly to horse tracks, huh) instead of losing my money at the windows makes me less qualified to post here. good to know.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

what that supposed to be an insult or something?

Nah. Despite your penchant for just posting for the sake of posting I actually like you and always have.

Apparently the feeling isn't mutual, but I'll try and find a way to go on.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I guess spending my extra money on golf an vacations (mostly to horse tracks, huh) instead of losing my money at the windows makes me less qualified to post here. good to know.

I know this wasn't meant to be comedy, but I laughed. A lot.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Nah. Despite your penchant for just posting for the sake of posting I actually like you and always have.

Apparently the feeling isn't mutual, but I'll try and find a way to go on.

at least you got one thing right in this thread!


two alpha's usually dont do well together in a pen.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

at least you got one thing right in this thread!

Guess that means I got one up on you then.

Feel free to address Rollo's post when you get a chance. Thanks for playing.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by trackrat59

If you don't get it don't worry about it. Just drop it.

I did the same kind of thisn a couple of weeks ago but gave up much sooner...

Sometimes you just have to.

(Not always though).

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Again, evasion.

Let's clean this up nice and neat so you can be on your way.

You:
"the vet isnt even recommending treatment like shock wave. Just 60 days stall rest and hand walking."

The vet:
"In a lesser horse we would rehabilitate, probably using stem cell therapy, but it takes a year to fully resolve, and it usually reduces a horses quality...we should stop her racing career."

Yeah, he's not recommending any special treatment...just retirement.

As far evaluating lameness, again, you have been completely turned around and bent over a barrel by Riot.

Neither Riot nor anyone else in this thread was involved in the examination of Havre De Grace, so any purported skill in lameness evaulation is irrelevent. What is relevant is that the examining veterinarian noted that Havre De Grace was "1/5 lame" on his written report. Non-examining veterinarian Riot noted that Havre De Grace was "not lame" on her DT post.

Who exactly is trying to be a better judge than whom here?

minor issues can show up on radiographs and MRI's that cause no physical lameness to the horse.

Is this horse visably lame? no (or at least not likely.. i havent seen the horse, nor would I be able to tell if I did see that horse, but a 1 / 5 tells you the horse is not visably lame)

does the horse have an issue? yes (in this case desmitis in the RF middle distal sesamoidean ligament)

according to the report, the vet is most concered with this issue affecting other ligaments in the RF if the horse is raced or trained. That kind of thing happens ALL the time. one minor issue (some times not even visably seen) starts a domino effect and now the horse is severly lame.

a 1.5 on a flexion test is a pretty minor finding.

so no, the horse will not physically appear lame. The horse has desmitis as shown on the radiograph. If they were real concerned about this finding, there are many ways of treatment which the vet does not seem neccessary.

a 1.5 on a flexion would make me concerned that lameness could occur in the near future. give her stall rest instead of training which is hard on a horses' legs and the horse should stay happy and pain free.

Since its so damn subjective and this arguement is lame.. you can win Rollo.

[Riot]

RolloTomasi wrote: Neither Riot nor anyone else in this thread was involved in the examination of Havre De Grace, so any purported skill in lameness evaulation is irrelevent.

Nope. That's exactly why we professionals all use the same proscribed lameness scale. So when a specialist vet, like Dr. Bramlage, sends his written report back the original referring vet - as Porter generally published for us - the original vet that reads it knows exactly what was found. And very importantly, the insurance company - that would be someone like Antitrust - also knows exactly what was found.

And the only people left confused about what the professionals are doing, are those proving John Gabriel's internet theory true

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by trackrat59

If you don't get it don't worry about it. Just drop it.

oh, i get what you're saying. just not everyone looks at things the same way i guess. you'd think he could keep her-but i guess he doesn't have a connection with her.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Nope. That's exactly why we professionals all use the same proscribed lameness scale. So when a specialist vet, like Dr. Bramlage, sends his written report back the original referring vet - as Porter generally published for us - the original vet that reads it knows exactly what was found.

Only you're not using the same proscribed lameness scale. You're saying that a horse that is exhibiting a AAEP grade 1 lameness is not lame.

Come off it already. Your trying to evoke visions of crippled, brokedown horses to downplay the admittedly minor degree of lameness observed in Havre De Grace. It's obvious you're trying to blow smoke and hide behind the wide range of severity of lameness to save face. It's disingenuous and pathetic.

What's the difference between a grade 0 and a grade 1 on the AAEP scale?

And very importantly, the insurance company - that would be someone like Antitrust - also knows exactly what was found.

Cool. So even the insurance adjusters are experts in lameness now.

Do they use more than one lameness scale to cloud the issue and suit their purposes, too?

[Antitrust32]

Question Rollo..

How do you exhibit (a word you have repeatedly used in this thread) a G 1 lameness when 1 / 5 lameness is not visible?

fyi, the definition of exhibit is to show outwardly.

I feel like you are trying to be as deceptive as you claim Riot and I to be.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Question Rollo..

How do you exhibit (a word you have repeatedly used in this thread) a G 1 lameness when 1 / 5 lameness is not visible?

fyi, the definition of exhibit is to show outwardly.

I feel like you are trying to be as deceptive as you claim Riot and I to be.

You and I both already posted this. I never agreed with the ridiculous notion that a Grade 1 lameness is not visible.

Grade 1: Lameness is difficult to observe and is not consistently apparent, regardless of circumstances (e.g. under saddle, circling, inclines, hard surface, etc.).

Where in that description does it say that it is invisible or imperceptable? Nowhere. Does that mean it is a severe lameness? No. Does that mean it is easy to observe? No. Will an experienced, trained professional be able to identify a Grade 1 lameness? Yes. Is Dr. L.R. Bramlage considered such a professional? Yes. Did he note a finding of a Grade 1 lameness in his report? Yes.

Now then, let me ask you a question. One that Riot refuses to answer. How is a Grade 1 lameness identified?

[Antitrust32]

i believe in this case it was determined through a positive flexion of the RF. or through radiographs? I'm not sure

someone experienced in diagnosing horses would be better off answering this question than me.

[cmorioles]

I saw this posted two weeks ago, so I doubt an x-ray or whatever told them she was lame:

"Rumors are that Harve de Grace is at Rood and Riddle and a retirement announcement is pending."

Drugs...just a smug pic.

I've heard some people can horse whisper over IP. Maybe she reached hdg over the Edge network.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by trackrat59

"several good ones" - If you have money you can buy "several good ones" all you want. Once you put them on the track in a race, try and keep them happy and healthy, well, that takes "several good ones" to another place.

I think it was the owner of Lava Man that said something about why he would not take any of the offers he was getting for LM. Something like, what was he going to do with the money? Try and purchase "several good ones" and come up with another Lava Man?

Same concept with HDG. Just saying, If that were my filly I would hold on to her.

She is a maiden mare in her new career and we don't really need to list the number of really good racemares that were hardly stellar broodmares do we? The odds are that Porter will find the money spent from her purchase far more effective in terms of finding new runners than the money he would have to sink into her as a mare. Between board/farm expenses, stud fee and insurance alone it might cost him close to 1/2 a million a year to keep her.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I never agreed with the ridiculous notion that a Grade 1 lameness is not visible.

Yet the entire veterinary profession disagrees with you.

[cmorioles]

So, I'm curious, looks like the x-ray and diagnosis were done yesterday, yet she was in place with an announcement pending two weeks ago. It looks like somebody knew she was lame before any x-ray, doesn't it?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yet the entire veterinary profession disagrees with you.

Yawn. More sidesteps. Simply answer the question, what is the difference between an AAEP lameness score of 0 and a score of 1?