unions killing jobs...

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Kind of a double standard no? Unions are firefighters, police and kidy-garden teachers, but Corporations are evil and are not made up of workers and investors. The reason people are anti-union is they have seen them destroy the automobile industry and the majority of public schools in this country and are concerned about the rest.

I used to be as anti-union as they come however the pendulum has moved so far in favor of business and they have no qualms about destroying your life for the enrichment of a few. My view of unions has changed.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by jms62

I used to be as anti-union as they come however the pendulum has moved so far in favor of business and they have no qualms about destroying your life for the enrichment of a few. My view of unions has changed.

It isn't the people in the unions, it is the union management that fosters the vitriol. Nobody hates teachers, except of course good teachers that cannot stand the other 80% of hangers on just collecting their protected jobs that require very little energy and even less accountability.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Nobody hates teachers, except of course good teachers that cannot stand the other 80% of hangers on just collecting their protected jobs that require very little energy and even less accountability.

You can't be taken seriously when you accuse 80% of teachers in this country of being incompetent hangers-on. That's absurd, that's without any factual basis. I call bullshit: Prove it. Provide some facts or numbers to support such an extraordinary contention and hatred for teachers.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

You can't be taken seriously when you accuse 80% of teachers in this country of being incompetent hangers-on. That's absurd, that's without any factual basis. I call bullshit: Prove it. Provide some facts or numbers to support such an extraordinary contention and hatred for teachers.

Two teacher friends use that number, just sharing their thoughts. They are both good teachers, cannot stand the union. The combined quote from these two would be surmised as, "the young kids come in here and all they want is tenure and summers off, they think 45K/yr is all the money in the world. The old teachers know they cannot be fired and no longer care, just plodding along toward retirement." This was not everyone but the 80% came from two individuals from separate school systems. I like teachers.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Two teacher friends use that number, just sharing their thoughts. They are both good teachers, cannot stand the union. The combined quote from these two would be surmised as, "the young kids come in here and all they want is tenure and summers off, they think 45K/yr is all the money in the world. The old teachers know they cannot be fired and no longer care, just plodding along toward retirement." This was not everyone but the 80% came from two individuals from separate school systems. I like teachers.

It seems quite inappropriate to demonize 80% of the hundreds of thousands of teachers in this country as incompetent hanger's-on based upon the opinion of two people about their own personal situations.

And it is completely pathetic that we consider $45K a good salary for one of the most important and respected jobs in the (rest of) the world. No wonder all school districts are getting are people that would be better suited to working behind the counter of the local convenience store. People can't raise a family on $45K.

Smart, educated people are going to get the best careers they can, both mentally and financially rewarding. And teachers have always been rather terribly paid for what they do, and now being actively demonized as evil. Who will go into teaching now in the US?

Meanwhile, in some other countries, teachers are considered important, smart, are revered, the profession is very respected - the smartest and most dedicated are recuited - and are paid very, very well for it.

You get what you pay for, and the United States is cheap and lazy.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

It seems quite inappropriate to demonize 80% of the hundreds of thousands of teachers in this country as incompetent hanger's-on based upon the opinion of two people about their own personal situations.

Since there are no mathematical or scientific methods for measuring a teachers success or ability, the word of co-workers is really all we have. Perhaps the lack of this method is the reason the union proliferation is so grand in that profession.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Since there are no mathematical or scientific methods for measuring a teachers success or ability, the word of co-workers is really all we have. Perhaps the lack of this method is the reason the union proliferation is so grand in that profession.

In other words, you're going to keep making assertions as factual that you have simply pulled out of thin air about hundreds of thousands of teachers in the US.

Well, okay: then I say 80% of the teachers in this country are terribly dedicated and yet grossly abused and underpaid.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

It seems quite inappropriate to demonize 80% of the hundreds of thousands of teachers in this country as incompetent hanger's-on based upon the opinion of two people about their own personal situations.

And it is completely pathetic that we consider $45K a good salary for one of the most important and respected jobs in the (rest of) the world. No wonder all school districts are getting are people that would be better suited to working behind the counter of the local convenience store. People can't raise a family on $45K.

Smart, educated people are going to get the best careers they can, both mentally and financially rewarding. And teachers have always been rather terribly paid for what they do, and now being actively demonized as evil. Who will go into teaching now in the US?

Meanwhile, in some other countries, teachers are considered important, smart, are revered, the profession is very respected - the smartest and most dedicated are recuited - and are paid very, very well for it.

You get what you pay for, and the United States is cheap and lazy.

I did forget to mention that 45K is starting and the reason they think it is all the money in the world is because "they are fresh out of college and live with their parents." It is an excellent starting salary and if that is what you make perhaps starting a family is not the best idea.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

I did forget to mention that 45K is starting and the reason they think it is all the money in the world is because "they are fresh out of college and live with their parents." It is an excellent starting salary and if that is what you make perhaps starting a family is not the best idea.

If you think, in 2011, that $50-60K is a decent salary for a lifetime of raising a family of 4, when real wage value in this country has done nothing but fall precipitously over time, you don't have a good grip on what has happened in this country over the past 40 years.

Yes, $45K is a tremendous amount of money in my mind.

Except when it costs $2000 a month for housing, food, car, utilities, and student loan payback is another $500 a month, and retirement savings is 10% of take home. Then add in those that think evil teachers unions are destroying this country, so don't give them healthcare at work, take that away! Or make them pay $250 a month for it!

Yes, raise a family on what's left out of that $45K after the above.

Nobody deserves free money. They of course have to earn it through their competence no matter their profession or job.

But this country is in very, very deep trouble, we are no longer an elite first world country, and that problem was not caused by teachers unions.

We have " ... A republic - if you can keep it". I have serious doubts about the future of the next 50 years of this country.

[Antitrust32]

my mom is a teacher and she told me the thought that bad teachers in unions cant be fired is not true. she said 5 teachers were fired from her school last year.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

my mom is a teacher and she told me the thought that bad teachers in unions cant be fired is not true. she said 5 teachers were fired from her school last year.

depending on location. good for that school district though.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

depending on location. good for that school district though.

She teaches in the berbs outside Philly.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

She teaches in the berbs outside Philly.

Bucks? I believe Bucks would not permit bad teachers.