Michelle Bachmann

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by joeydb

It wouldn't control people lives to end abortion. It would save lives. Abortion is among the most evil of acts in the world, particularly so since the government validates it with false legitimacy.

Here we go again. If a 13 year old girl gets raped, should she be allowed to get an abortion?

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Here we go again. If a 13 year old girl gets raped, should she be allowed to get an abortion?

If she is one of the less than 1% of rape victims who gets pregnant, then yeah, provided that the rape has been documented as a crime by the authorities, not just alleged after the fact.

And I'd charge the apprehended rapist with a count of at least 2nd degree homicide - since the death came out of his violent act toward the female and her resulting pregnancy.

There is still a life being taken. The issue is who's responsible.

Now, you can clearly see that my attempt at a hypothetical solution to your hypothetical (but plausible) crime does not mean that we would extend permission to get an abortion to anyone who, after getting pregnant, just doesn't want to have a baby. 99% of all abortions would be eliminated.

[Antitrust32]

if abortions were ended the population would be even more out of control.

if you are going to limit abortion, than you will also need to limit how many children a woman can have. basically take away all rights to choose.

and how do you pay for all those unwanted children who will become wards of the state?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by joeydb

If she is one of the less than 1% of rape victims who gets pregnant, then yeah, provided that the rape has been documented as a crime by the authorities, not just alleged after the fact.

And I'd charge the apprehended rapist with a count of at least 2nd degree homicide - since the death came out of his violent act toward the female and her resulting pregnancy.

There is still a life being taken. The issue is who's responsible.

Now, you can clearly see that my attempt at a hypothetical solution to your hypothetical (but plausible) crime does not mean that we would extend permission to get an abortion to anyone who, after getting pregnant, just doesn't want to have a baby. 99% of all abortions would be eliminated.

What about the cases where the 13 year old is raped by a family member? They don't report it because of fear, or embarrassment.

Obviously another hypothetical, but I'll never understand why men care so much about what women do with their bodies. Sure, when women use abortion as birth control it's a problem, but that's a very small % of the time. This is just more of the right wanting to control things.

We have enough kids running around with parents, who just aren't capable of, or just don't want to be parents.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What about the cases where the 13 year old is raped by a family member? They don't report it because of fear, or embarrassment.

Obviously another hypothetical, but I'll never understand why men care so much about what women do with their bodies. Sure, when women use abortion as birth control it's a problem, but that's a very small % of the time. This is just more of the right wanting to control things.

We have enough kids running around with parents, who just aren't capable of, or just don't want to be parents.

In our hypothetical new rules, the crime would have to be reported. The family member would get locked up, same thing - charged with 2nd degree murder or maybe even 1st degree - with the basis being that the close and continuous contact as a family member was tantamount to premeditation.

And I personally don't view it as "the right wanting to control things." I'd be happy to see abortion go away as the issue would also go away. Yes, I am a political conservative but I'd rather discuss other topics along that line of thinking.

We would know what exactly the rules are - it would still be there for such extreme cases as these crimes we are talking about. But the days of the would-be mother, alone, making the decision to end a life that she did not create alone, would end.

When a life is taken by an arm of the government, whether through capital punishment or in an abortion clinic, there needs to be due process. Investigation, records and the like. It cannot be "hush hush" and then someone is dead.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

And I personally don't view it as "the right wanting to control things." I'd be happy to see abortion go away as the issue would also go away.

Or, "If everyone would have my beliefs, I wouldn't have to change laws to force you guys behave as I want you to!"

What bullshit. Get the hell out of other people's lives.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

What bullshit. Get the hell out of other people's lives.

completely!!!!!!! pocket book, wallets and purses included.

Pay for your own shiat!

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

What bullshit. Get the hell out of other people's lives.

Right. Stop terminating the lives of the innocent through abortion.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Right. Stop terminating the lives of the innocent through abortion.

I'm anti-abortion. Very. The difference between you and me is that you want to poke your nose into other people's lives, and dictate how they live.

You don't have the right in this country.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by joeydb

In our hypothetical new rules, the crime would have to be reported. The family member would get locked up, same thing - charged with 2nd degree murder or maybe even 1st degree - with the basis being that the close and continuous contact as a family member was tantamount to premeditation.

And I personally don't view it as "the right wanting to control things." I'd be happy to see abortion go away as the issue would also go away. Yes, I am a political conservative but I'd rather discuss other topics along that line of thinking.

We would know what exactly the rules are - it would still be there for such extreme cases as these crimes we are talking about. But the days of the would-be mother, alone, making the decision to end a life that she did not create alone, would end.

When a life is taken by an arm of the government, whether through capital punishment or in an abortion clinic, there needs to be due process. Investigation, records and the like. It cannot be "hush hush" and then someone is dead.

But crimes don't always go reported, especially crimes like that. So you'd be in favor of that person HAVING to have a baby they don't want because they are either too afraid or ashamed to report it? Doesn't seem very god-like to me.

We need less government involvement in our lives, not more. Stop trying to push your religious beliefs on everyone.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

But crimes don't always go reported, especially crimes like that. So you'd be in favor of that person HAVING to have a baby they don't want because they are either too afraid or ashamed to report it? Doesn't seem very god-like to me.

We need less government involvement in our lives, not more. Stop trying to push your religious beliefs on everyone.

Don't the Taliban sort of do that?

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

But crimes don't always go reported, especially crimes like that. So you'd be in favor of that person HAVING to have a baby they don't want because they are either too afraid or ashamed to report it? Doesn't seem very god-like to me.

We need less government involvement in our lives, not more. Stop trying to push your religious beliefs on everyone.

Is embarassment and the lack of willingness to report a crime sufficient reason to terminate an innocent life? Absolutely not.

And that's not a religious position. As somerfrost has pointed out, it stems from the (scientifically based) belief that life begins at conception, and that abortion therefore is the taking of a life. It is, for me, independent of religion. You don't see me pushing for creation theory here, centered on the book of Genesis. I don't believe that is literally how it happened. And besides, the debate between evolution and the 7-day creation account given in the Bible doesn't get anybody killed. It is intellectually lazy for the pro-abortion crowd to assign all motives of the anti-abortion crowd to religion. That's not correct.

Without intervention, a baby is coming. It is the supporters of abortion who must defend their position, not me or anyone who just advocates for nature to take its course.

[Danzig]

kathy ritvo, trainer of mucho macho man, was profiled in bloodhorse a few months back. i'm sure everyone knows her story about her heart transplant...but she also talked about the fact that at one point she became pregnant. her and her husband came to the painful decision to terminate the pregnancy because her doctor told her it would likely prove fatal. she already had two children-a family who needed her. now, who had the right to tell her to do otherwise? or force her to do so? thankfully, no one.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Is embarassment and the lack of willingness to report a crime sufficient reason to terminate an innocent life? Absolutely not.

In the scenario I presented....absolutely. Are you human? You'd rather force a 13 year old that was raped to have a baby because she is too embarassed or ashamed to admit what happened to her? I'll ask again, are you human?

Originally Posted by joeydb

And that's not a religious position. As somerfrost has pointed out, it stems from the (scientifically based) belief that life begins at conception, and that abortion therefore is the taking of a life. It is, for me, independent of religion. You don't see me pushing for creation theory here, centered on the book of Genesis. I don't believe that is literally how it happened. And besides, the debate between evolution and the 7-day creation account given in the Bible doesn't get anybody killed. It is intellectually lazy for the pro-abortion crowd to assign all motives of the anti-abortion crowd to religion. That's not correct.

Bulls.hit. It's all about religion. You can deny it, but I have seen enough of your posts to know that is how you form your opinions. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Originally Posted by joeydb

Without intervention, a baby is coming. It is the supporters of abortion who must defend their position, not me or anyone who just advocates for nature to take its course.

Since abortion is legal, I don't have to defend my position. You're the one interested in pushing your religious beliefs on me and others and trying to intervene in people's lives. That's all on you Kirk Cameron.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by joeydb

If she is one of the less than 1% of rape victims who gets pregnant, then yeah, provided that the rape has been documented as a crime by the authorities, not just alleged after the fact.

And I'd charge the apprehended rapist with a count of at least 2nd degree homicide - since the death came out of his violent act toward the female and her resulting pregnancy.

There is still a life being taken. The issue is who's responsible.

Now, you can clearly see that my attempt at a hypothetical solution to your hypothetical (but plausible) crime does not mean that we would extend permission to get an abortion to anyone who, after getting pregnant, just doesn't want to have a baby. 99% of all abortions would be eliminated.

and by the time that case came to court, the child would be about 2 years old.
like i've said before, about abortion, guns, etc, etc..if you're not in favor of it, disagree with it, then don't do it. your opinion fits you, suits you, and your life. it's not your business to tell someone else that your opinion should be theirs, or that their rights should be taken away because you don't agree.
again, as i said regarding giving rights to homosexuals-how does someone being granted a right, in this case abortion, a taking away of your rights joey? how does it affect you, your life, how you live it? it doesn't.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and by the time that case came to court, the child would be about 2 years old.
like i've said before, about abortion, guns, etc, etc..if you're not in favor of it, disagree with it, then don't do it. your opinion fits you, suits you, and your life. it's not your business to tell someone else that your opinion should be theirs, or that their rights should be taken away because you don't agree.
again, as i said regarding giving rights to homosexuals-how does someone being granted a right, in this case abortion, a taking away of your rights joey? how does it affect you, your life, how you live it? it doesn't.

Abortion is unique however as many folks honestly believe that life begins at conception therefore abortion equates to murder. Some of those beliefs are packaged into an ultra right wing religious belief and some are the result of personal philosophy...nevertheless it is a complicated topic. The one striking factor is that in some states, while abortion is unrestricted, murder of a pregnant woman is considered the taking of two lives (Scott Peterson)...this seems a bit confusing. As I've said, I'd like to see abortion become unnecessary but that requires significant cultural changes centered around an increased sense of responsibility for both men and women (largely men)...until that day, this argument will never end.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Abortion is unique however as many folks honestly believe that life begins at conception therefore abortion equates to murder. Some of those beliefs are packaged into an ultra right wing religious belief and some are the result of personal philosophy...nevertheless it is a complicated topic. The one striking factor is that in some states, while abortion is unrestricted, murder of a pregnant woman is considered the taking of two lives (Scott Peterson)...this seems a bit confusing. As I've said, I'd like to see abortion become unnecessary but that requires significant cultural changes centered around an increased sense of responsibility for both men and women (largely men)...until that day, this argument will never end.

i don't care how honest beliefs are. beliefs can be illogical, nonsensical, and unprovable. they shouldn't be the basis of law. i find it odd that the party that supposedly believes in small government so often is actually for more govt.
religion is an excuse to mind other peoples' business. it's 'for your own good' i'm sure.

[Riot]