Michelle Bachmann

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by joeydb

If she is one of the less than 1% of rape victims who gets pregnant, then yeah, provided that the rape has been documented as a crime by the authorities, not just alleged after the fact.

And I'd charge the apprehended rapist with a count of at least 2nd degree homicide - since the death came out of his violent act toward the female and her resulting pregnancy.

There is still a life being taken. The issue is who's responsible.

Now, you can clearly see that my attempt at a hypothetical solution to your hypothetical (but plausible) crime does not mean that we would extend permission to get an abortion to anyone who, after getting pregnant, just doesn't want to have a baby. 99% of all abortions would be eliminated.

What about the cases where the 13 year old is raped by a family member? They don't report it because of fear, or embarrassment.

Obviously another hypothetical, but I'll never understand why men care so much about what women do with their bodies. Sure, when women use abortion as birth control it's a problem, but that's a very small % of the time. This is just more of the right wanting to control things.

We have enough kids running around with parents, who just aren't capable of, or just don't want to be parents.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What about the cases where the 13 year old is raped by a family member? They don't report it because of fear, or embarrassment.

Obviously another hypothetical, but I'll never understand why men care so much about what women do with their bodies. Sure, when women use abortion as birth control it's a problem, but that's a very small % of the time. This is just more of the right wanting to control things.

We have enough kids running around with parents, who just aren't capable of, or just don't want to be parents.

In our hypothetical new rules, the crime would have to be reported. The family member would get locked up, same thing - charged with 2nd degree murder or maybe even 1st degree - with the basis being that the close and continuous contact as a family member was tantamount to premeditation.

And I personally don't view it as "the right wanting to control things." I'd be happy to see abortion go away as the issue would also go away. Yes, I am a political conservative but I'd rather discuss other topics along that line of thinking.

We would know what exactly the rules are - it would still be there for such extreme cases as these crimes we are talking about. But the days of the would-be mother, alone, making the decision to end a life that she did not create alone, would end.

When a life is taken by an arm of the government, whether through capital punishment or in an abortion clinic, there needs to be due process. Investigation, records and the like. It cannot be "hush hush" and then someone is dead.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

And I personally don't view it as "the right wanting to control things." I'd be happy to see abortion go away as the issue would also go away.

Or, "If everyone would have my beliefs, I wouldn't have to change laws to force you guys behave as I want you to!"

What bullshit. Get the hell out of other people's lives.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

What bullshit. Get the hell out of other people's lives.

completely!!!!!!! pocket book, wallets and purses included.

Pay for your own shiat!

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

What bullshit. Get the hell out of other people's lives.

Right. Stop terminating the lives of the innocent through abortion.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Right. Stop terminating the lives of the innocent through abortion.

I'm anti-abortion. Very. The difference between you and me is that you want to poke your nose into other people's lives, and dictate how they live.

You don't have the right in this country.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by joeydb

In our hypothetical new rules, the crime would have to be reported. The family member would get locked up, same thing - charged with 2nd degree murder or maybe even 1st degree - with the basis being that the close and continuous contact as a family member was tantamount to premeditation.

And I personally don't view it as "the right wanting to control things." I'd be happy to see abortion go away as the issue would also go away. Yes, I am a political conservative but I'd rather discuss other topics along that line of thinking.

We would know what exactly the rules are - it would still be there for such extreme cases as these crimes we are talking about. But the days of the would-be mother, alone, making the decision to end a life that she did not create alone, would end.

When a life is taken by an arm of the government, whether through capital punishment or in an abortion clinic, there needs to be due process. Investigation, records and the like. It cannot be "hush hush" and then someone is dead.

But crimes don't always go reported, especially crimes like that. So you'd be in favor of that person HAVING to have a baby they don't want because they are either too afraid or ashamed to report it? Doesn't seem very god-like to me.

We need less government involvement in our lives, not more. Stop trying to push your religious beliefs on everyone.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

But crimes don't always go reported, especially crimes like that. So you'd be in favor of that person HAVING to have a baby they don't want because they are either too afraid or ashamed to report it? Doesn't seem very god-like to me.

We need less government involvement in our lives, not more. Stop trying to push your religious beliefs on everyone.

Don't the Taliban sort of do that?

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

But crimes don't always go reported, especially crimes like that. So you'd be in favor of that person HAVING to have a baby they don't want because they are either too afraid or ashamed to report it? Doesn't seem very god-like to me.

We need less government involvement in our lives, not more. Stop trying to push your religious beliefs on everyone.

Is embarassment and the lack of willingness to report a crime sufficient reason to terminate an innocent life? Absolutely not.

And that's not a religious position. As somerfrost has pointed out, it stems from the (scientifically based) belief that life begins at conception, and that abortion therefore is the taking of a life. It is, for me, independent of religion. You don't see me pushing for creation theory here, centered on the book of Genesis. I don't believe that is literally how it happened. And besides, the debate between evolution and the 7-day creation account given in the Bible doesn't get anybody killed. It is intellectually lazy for the pro-abortion crowd to assign all motives of the anti-abortion crowd to religion. That's not correct.

Without intervention, a baby is coming. It is the supporters of abortion who must defend their position, not me or anyone who just advocates for nature to take its course.

[Danzig]

kathy ritvo, trainer of mucho macho man, was profiled in bloodhorse a few months back. i'm sure everyone knows her story about her heart transplant...but she also talked about the fact that at one point she became pregnant. her and her husband came to the painful decision to terminate the pregnancy because her doctor told her it would likely prove fatal. she already had two children-a family who needed her. now, who had the right to tell her to do otherwise? or force her to do so? thankfully, no one.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Danzig

kathy ritvo, trainer of mucho macho man, was profiled in bloodhorse a few months back. i'm sure everyone knows her story about her heart transplant...but she also talked about the fact that at one point she became pregnant. her and her husband came to the painful decision to terminate the pregnancy because her doctor told her it would likely prove fatal. she already had two children-a family who needed her. now, who had the right to tell her to do otherwise? or force her to do so? thankfully, no one.

That's obviously a case where there is no choice. No sane person would force that.

Realize that the exception cases many pro-life people agree on, like rape and when the mother's life is in peril, are around 1% of all abortion cases, and the other 99% are simply "elective". The exceptions do not justify the elective abortions. It's not that juvenile. We can ban abortions where those factors of being the result of a documented crime or causing a legitimate medical emergency are not present.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by joeydb

That's obviously a case where there is no choice. No sane person would force that.

Realize that the exception cases many pro-life people agree on, like rape and when the mother's life is in peril, are around 1% of all abortion cases, and the other 99% are simply "elective". The exceptions do not justify the elective abortions. It's not that juvenile. We can ban abortions where those factors of being the result of a documented crime or causing a legitimate medical emergency are not present.

and like i said above, the issue of a documented crime is a thorny one. what if the accused rapist goes free? what if the case doesn't go to trial? or what if people just shouldn't have to meet your choice of a burden of proof? then there's the fact that people can find professionals to say yea or nay to pretty much any topic under the sun, who would be the decider? three doctors say no, three say yes-should it be a committee? how much of a fight would it take? what if someone had to go through said hoops, was rejected by the 'abortion police' and died?
or, what if we just stay out of it, and let folks decide for themselves...no, we can't do that, we must be other peoples' judges.

and where does the 1% come from you mentioned above? have you done a survey? how many women don't say it was a crime, or a molestation? how many victims don't speak out already because they feel shame?

at any rate, i don't feel it's anyone's place to tell others what they should or shouldn't do regarding their reproduction choices. it's no one else's business.
and i asked you in a post above, but i guess you missed it...how does someone else's right affect you? how does a woman's right to choose have any affect on your life?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Is embarassment and the lack of willingness to report a crime sufficient reason to terminate an innocent life? Absolutely not.

In the scenario I presented....absolutely. Are you human? You'd rather force a 13 year old that was raped to have a baby because she is too embarassed or ashamed to admit what happened to her? I'll ask again, are you human?

Originally Posted by joeydb

And that's not a religious position. As somerfrost has pointed out, it stems from the (scientifically based) belief that life begins at conception, and that abortion therefore is the taking of a life. It is, for me, independent of religion. You don't see me pushing for creation theory here, centered on the book of Genesis. I don't believe that is literally how it happened. And besides, the debate between evolution and the 7-day creation account given in the Bible doesn't get anybody killed. It is intellectually lazy for the pro-abortion crowd to assign all motives of the anti-abortion crowd to religion. That's not correct.

Bulls.hit. It's all about religion. You can deny it, but I have seen enough of your posts to know that is how you form your opinions. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Originally Posted by joeydb

Without intervention, a baby is coming. It is the supporters of abortion who must defend their position, not me or anyone who just advocates for nature to take its course.

Since abortion is legal, I don't have to defend my position. You're the one interested in pushing your religious beliefs on me and others and trying to intervene in people's lives. That's all on you Kirk Cameron.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

In the scenario I presented....absolutely. Are you human? You'd rather force a 13 year old that was raped to have a baby because she is too embarassed or ashamed to admit what happened to her? I'll ask again, are you human?



Bulls.hit. It's all about religion. You can deny it, but I have seen enough of your posts to know that is how you form your opinions. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise.



Since abortion is legal, I don't have to defend my position. You're the one interested in pushing your religious beliefs on me and others and trying to intervene in people's lives. That's all on you Kirk Cameron.

You're so human you want to kill another human so nobody has to file a police report.

You don't know sh*t about me. Yes, I belong to a religion, but I likely know more about science than you do, and that is how I form my opinions. Since only I know my own inner thoughts, it's ridiculous for you to claim you know the origins of my motivations. I reiterate: a pro-life position need not be religious in nature. Stop the killing the innocent.

You do need to defend why the government approved termination of human life should be allowed to continue. Once the Supreme Court reverses Roe v. Wade, I'm sure you'll be quite vocal.

I suspect that your motivation is one of guilt. You can't accept that the position you advocate for is wrong, in that innocent babies are being killed. You'll defend that position to the last, and demonize any who oppose you, so that you won't have to accept the inexorable truth.

[dino]

I'm not religious but have no problem calling abortion murder in most instances. Funny how the opposition always seems to come up with something like what about if a 13 year old just started having her period and it was a Tuesday during lent with a full moon and she got raped by her second uncle who had aids and was mentally slow. Now should she have the baby?
Why don't they ever point out the 99 out of 100 abortions that are just a matter of convienience? They always try to come up with some 1 in a 100,000 senerio.
OOPS I'm not agreeing with Dahoss so he'll probably make some personal insult and then hide behind his computer.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by joeydb

You're so human you want to kill another human so nobody has to file a police report.

I obviously didn't say that. If you didn't insist on being disingenuous you wouldn't say that. I'm not big on absolutes. I realize there are different circumstances for people. I realize sometimes when someone is raped they don't report it. Just like people don't report other crimes for whatever reason. I don't think forcing a rape victim to have a child because they didn't report the crime, for whatever reason they, THE VICTIM, might have is very human.

Originally Posted by joeydb

You don't know sh*t about me.

Here's where it gets good. Anyone who has read a few minutes of this hell hole of a room knows your positions and how they are formed. But what I find so funny is in one sentence you say I know nothing about you, despite hundreds of posts, yet you spend the next two paragraphs making baseless and untrue claims about me. Disingenuous to a fault.

Originally Posted by joeydb

You do need to defend why the government approved termination of human life should be allowed to continue. Once the Supreme Court reverses Roe v. Wade, I'm sure you'll be quite vocal.

No, I don't need to defend anything. Keep trying.

Originally Posted by joeydb

I suspect that your motivation is one of guilt. You can't accept that the position you advocate for is wrong, in that innocent babies are being killed. You'll defend that position to the last, and demonize any who oppose you, so that you won't have to accept the inexorable truth.

Spoken like a true religious nut. Thanks for proving my point.