NBA Playoffs

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

One of the worst comparisons evah.

it was tongue in cheek. but the rest of my post wasnt. people look at scoring points as the only stat in basketball. pretty ridiculous. anyone who's played the game knows that defense is the #1 way to win games, and assists contribute highly to point totals. you can definately "close out a game" by providing shut down defense. LeBron is one of the best defenders, and passers in the game.

here is a real baseball comparison. Just looking at a basketball players points column is like focusing just on a baseball players home run total.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

it was tongue in cheek. but the rest of my post wasnt. people look at scoring points as the only stat in basketball. pretty ridiculous. anyone who's played the game knows that defense is the #1 way to win games, and assists contribute highly to point totals.

here is a real baseball comparison. Just looking at a basketball players points column is like focusing just on a baseball players home run total.

Sure it was. Your next comparison was just as bad. No one is looking just at points. I'm not sure why you say that.

What you're either missing or purposely ignoring is no one denies he's ONE of the best players in the league. He obviously is. It's the title of Best in the World people dispute. When you defer to your teammates during crunchtime to make the plays to win, I don't see how you can be considered best in the world.

Jordan didn't and Kobe doesn't. Lebron does.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

here is a real baseball comparison. Just looking at a basketball players points column is like focusing just on a baseball players home run total.

I wasn't aware wins and losses in baseball are decided by home run total. Obviously he's doing other things, but come on, the best player in the world has more to show for his Finals fourth quarters than a few assists and solid defense (and it's not like he's guarding Dirk).

[NTamm1215]

The Mavs sure are doing a lot of talking. About the Heat:

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba...ory?id=6632267

About each other:

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba...ory?id=6632035

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Sure it was. Your next comparison was just as bad. No one is looking just at points. I'm not sure why you say that.

What you're either missing or purposely ignoring is no one denies he's ONE of the best players in the league. He obviously is. It's the title of Best in the World people dispute. When you defer to your teammates during crunchtime to make the plays to win, I don't see how you can be considered best in the world.

Jordan didn't and Kobe doesn't. Lebron does.

dishing assists is NOT deferring to your teammates... it's creating plays. and if you do have a teammate who is as good as Wade, and said teammate is playing hot, why the heck would you not want the ball in his hands? The object is to win the game, not get a stamp of approval from the media and dahoss and ateam.


and what about the games that James has taken over in "crunchtime" and won throughout this years playoffs? You guys are cherry-picking your arguement off three games in the Finals, and even one where LeBron created the game winning play. Are you really not supposed to dish it to Bosh when he has a wide open look? it's a basketball TEAM for a reason. you're trying to say that a mans ego is more important than winning a game. Plus, you can "close out games" defensively, not just on offense.

I dont care about the whole "he's the single best player in the world". It's impossible to know and completely subjective. He might be the most talented basketball player in the world. But guys like Wade, Durant, Paul, Dirk, (Kobe before this year) etc are all amazing players, any day you could say either one of them is the best player in the world. Shoot, when Dwight Howard is on his game, he's basically unstoppable.


and it was completely tongue in cheek. I follow football, golf, and baseball very closely.. basketball not as closely but I played the damn sport for over 10 years and have played in hundreds of basketball games. If you dont think I know the difference between a closer in baseball and what you guys are refering to, I cant help you.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I wasn't aware wins and losses in baseball are decided by home run total. Obviously he's doing other things, but come on, the best player in the world has more to show for his Finals fourth quarters than a few assists and solid defense (and it's not like he's guarding Dirk).

basketball is not decided by the amount of points one person scores (just like baseball isnt decided by the # of home runs you hit). if that was the case, the Knicks would be the champs.

[Antitrust32]

from the article NTamm posted above:

Terry, the Dallas Mavericks' charismatic sixth man who likes to bust out his arms like airplane wings after he makes 3-pointers and prides himself on cold-blooded shooting in the clutch, has found little breathing room with Miami Heat forward LeBron James shutting him out of the late-game offense.

"They keep sticking him [James] on Jet in the fourth quarters and he's been doing a good job," Nowitzki said. "Jet hasn't really been a crunch-time, clutch player for us the way we need him to."


Nowitzki scored 34 points in the 88-86 Game 3 loss and he scored the Mavs' final 12 points of the game. Terry, the team's second-leading scorer, was 0-of-4 from the floor in the fourth quarter of the disappointing home loss that put the Mavs in a 2-1 hole with Game 4 on Tuesday night at the American Airlines Center

[dalakhani]

I appreciate that the game is so natural and instinctive for Lebron that he makes the RIGHT play in passing to a wide open player (that happens to make over 15 million) in that situation. I don't think he did it because he was shrinking up or he was scared.

Wade had the hot hand from the beginning last night and they kept feeding him the ball. I think its refreshing that Lebron doesn't feel like he needs to "get his" to please a bunch of people that will criticize him no matter what he does.

I'm no Lebron fan. As a matter of fact, it makes me completely ILL to watch him and Wade whine and cry over every violation or missed call. It is a horrible example and terrible for game. I am cheering like I rarely do for Dirk and the mavs to come through like I cheered for the Bulls and the celts before them. At the same time, one can't take away from his obvious ability. He is a prototype and the NBA has not seen a player like him. Thats not saying he is the best ever, but it is saying that he can do more things better than any player I have ever seen with Magic or Mike being the only other ones in that particular conversation.

Maybe he isn't the "closer" and I respect that and recognize that he hasn't been known as one that shines in the last minutes (although I think statisically that is debatable). Does he have to be to be considered amongst the best? Was Wilt chamberlain known as a "clutch" player? How about Bill Russell? Shaq? Malone? What were MJ's numbers with the game on the line?

I realize that MJ is known as the ultimate clutch player but I remember him bricking a few jumpers with a game on the line. The rest? I honestly don't know. I think often times a player gets tagged one way or the other and it follows him around. I think that is the case with Lebron and every time he lives up to the tag, its blown up and every time he actually delivers, its minimized.

One can't argue that he brings a lot of this on himself. His people should be ashamed of themselves for how poorly he handles the soundbite.

*added* If Lebron isn't currently the best player in the world, then who is?

[ateamstupid]

Let's stop acting like LeBron is dishing out a million assists in these fourth quarters please. He has a Chalmers-esque five assists in three fourth quarters. Two more than Wade. He's been nonexistant on the offensive end.

[King Glorious]

I think I get it. Passing, rebounding, and defense are not part of the game anymore. You're only good if you are scoring. Unless you're scoring too much in his case, in which he's back to being a selfish ballhog. I think we need to re-evaluate Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash. I didn't realize they were no good. Also, if Wade ends up as the playoff mvp and that proves James isn't the best, I guess the same is true for Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Isiah Thomas. You know, each of them won a championship but wasn't named playoff mvp. Imagine that.

Big deal that his nickname is King James. How is that different than Shaq or Dwight Howard being called Superman? Or Paul Pierce being The Truth? Allen Iverson being The Answer?

[King Glorious]

Wade has said it himself. He has said it's really simple, LeBron is their closer. He said that doesn't mean always taking the shot but that they put the ball in his hands and he makes the decisions. That's what a great player does. He recognizes where the best way to take advantage of the defense is and does just that. LeBron's best play waa the pass to Bosh. Star play.

[horseofcourse]

I can't believe I'm reduced to defending LEBron, but call me crazy once again, but I pretty distinctly remember the great Michael Jordan passing to wide open Steve Kerr and John Paxson for game winning shots in the NBA finals??

Based on what I am reading I am to conclude the guy couldn't close. HE had to rely on Kerr and Paxson like James had to rely on Bosh for the game winner last night. I'm a die hard Cleveland guy, and think him ridiculous, but the guy's got serious, serious game. I guess those 4th quarters going man on Derick Rose wasn't closing either.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

dishing assists is NOT deferring to your teammates... it's creating plays. and if you do have a teammate who is as good as Wade, and said teammate is playing hot, why the heck would you not want the ball in his hands? The object is to win the game, not get a stamp of approval from the media and dahoss and ateam.


and what about the games that James has taken over in "crunchtime" and won throughout this years playoffs? You guys are cherry-picking your arguement off three games in the Finals, and even one where LeBron created the game winning play. Are you really not supposed to dish it to Bosh when he has a wide open look? it's a basketball TEAM for a reason. you're trying to say that a mans ego is more important than winning a game. Plus, you can "close out games" defensively, not just on offense.

I dont care about the whole "he's the single best player in the world". It's impossible to know and completely subjective. He might be the most talented basketball player in the world. But guys like Wade, Durant, Paul, Dirk, (Kobe before this year) etc are all amazing players, any day you could say either one of them is the best player in the world. Shoot, when Dwight Howard is on his game, he's basically unstoppable.


and it was completely tongue in cheek. I follow football, golf, and baseball very closely.. basketball not as closely but I played the damn sport for over 10 years and have played in hundreds of basketball games. If you dont think I know the difference between a closer in baseball and what you guys are refering to, I cant help you.

Creating plays? He passed to a wide open guy. The player that made the Bosh shot happen was Haslem who screened 2 people. Did you watch the game? He didn't create anything at the end of the game.

You might not be interested in the best in the world stuff, but that was what Ateam and I were talking about. No one is denying he's really, really good. I'm just saying in crunch time I want Wade taking the shot, not Lebron. So, IMO Lebron isn't the best in the world.

Who cares how many basketball games you've played or what sports you follow? What does that have to do with anything?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think I get it. Passing, rebounding, and defense are not part of the game anymore. You're only good if you are scoring. Unless you're scoring too much in his case, in which he's back to being a selfish ballhog. I think we need to re-evaluate Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash. I didn't realize they were no good. Also, if Wade ends up as the playoff mvp and that proves James isn't the best, I guess the same is true for Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Isiah Thomas. You know, each of them won a championship but wasn't named playoff mvp. Imagine that.

Big deal that his nickname is King James. How is that different than Shaq or Dwight Howard being called Superman? Or Paul Pierce being The Truth? Allen Iverson being The Answer?

I think I get it. You have a man crush.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think I get it. Passing, rebounding, and defense are not part of the game anymore. You're only good if you are scoring.

Nope. Doing nothing isn't part of the game. LeBron has been a non-factor in the fourth quarters of this series. Why is this so hard for people to deal with? Dirk is carrying his goddamn team on injured hands and LeBron, the best player in the world, is letting his teammate do all the work. Cut the bullshit. LeBron is great, but he's not even the best player on his team and he joined this team specifically so he could disappear in the clutch and still win a title.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Nope. Doing nothing isn't part of the game. LeBron has been a non-factor in the fourth quarters of this series. Why is this so hard for people to deal with? Dirk is carrying his goddamn team on injured hands and LeBron, the best player in the world, is letting his teammate do all the work. Cut the bullshit. LeBron is great, but he's not even the best player on his team and he joined this team specifically so he could disappear in the clutch and still win a title.

A formidable thought.



He may soon come onto a strange boo boo.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by clyde

A formidable thought.



He may soon come onto a strange boo boo.

I tried so hahd to impress you

LeElbow is near

[clyde]

!!





OOOOOOOOOOO

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think I get it. Passing, rebounding, and defense are not part of the game anymore. You're only good if you are scoring. Unless you're scoring too much in his case, in which he's back to being a selfish ballhog. I think we need to re-evaluate Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash. I didn't realize they were no good. Also, if Wade ends up as the playoff mvp and that proves James isn't the best, I guess the same is true for Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Isiah Thomas. You know, each of them won a championship but wasn't named playoff mvp. Imagine that.

Big deal that his nickname is King James. How is that different than Shaq or Dwight Howard being called Superman? Or Paul Pierce being The Truth? Allen Iverson being The Answer?

hossy and ateam are just lebron haters

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

I can't believe I'm reduced to defending LEBron, but call me crazy once again, but I pretty distinctly remember the great Michael Jordan passing to wide open Steve Kerr and John Paxson for game winning shots in the NBA finals??

Based on what I am reading I am to conclude the guy couldn't close. HE had to rely on Kerr and Paxson like James had to rely on Bosh for the game winner last night. I'm a die hard Cleveland guy, and think him ridiculous, but the guy's got serious, serious game. I guess those 4th quarters going man on Derick Rose wasn't closing either.

exactly. I have no idea how people can come to the conclusion that James is not a closer. Its only because they hate the player.

He closed out the Celtics and the Bulls this year. Everyone forgets when he scored the final 25 points for Cleveland in 2007 against Detroit, how could a guy possibly do that and not be a closer? I remember when he hit the long three pointer with seconds on the clock to win another playoff game for Cleveland. Of course, sometimes he might pass it to the open player, or god forbit he actually misses a shot, but the notion that he's not a closer is insane. I do not agree with Hossy's opinion at all. Its just cherry picking because he doesnt like the guy.