baseball moves

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Heels1989

Nats reportedly set to offer Cliff Lee a 7-year deal worth over $200 mil. He's good but.......7 yr and $200 mil?

Probably an attempt by the org to give impression to fan base that they are trying to spend money.

Werth is a big mistake. This would be a monumental mistake unless they are ready to join the $150 million a year payroll. Werth and Lee alone would be 45 million. I guess the lessons of the SF world Series win are lost on the nats.

[jenroypa]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Werth is a big mistake. This would be a monumental mistake unless they are ready to join the $150 million a year payroll. Werth and Lee alone would be 45 million. I guess the lessons of the SF world Series win are lost on the nats.

Did I miss something? Did Barry Zito, Aaron Rowand and Edgar Renteria all decide to void their signings and give the $$ back? Giants payroll is in excess of $100 mill. and the 4 guys who carried them ( Lincecum, Cain, Wilson and Sanchez) make up less than 20 of that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jenroypa

Did I miss something? Did Barry Zito, Aaron Rowand and Edgar Renteria all decide to void their signings and give the $$ back? Giants payroll is in excess of $100 mill. and the 4 guys who carried them ( Lincecum, Cain, Wilson and Sanchez) make up less than 20 of that.

The point was that huge free agent signings didnt help the Giants win. As a matter of fact most of the big money contracts that they are paying did very little to help. Yes Zito had a good 1/2 of a season and Renteria played well in the World Series but they certainly didn't get their money's worth from those 3.

The Giants opening day payroll was 96 million.
18.5 went to Zito
12 went to Rowand
10 went to Renteria

So 40 million went to guys who were hardly better than replacement level players.

Do you think the Giants wish they werent on the hook to those two stiffs (Zito and Rowand) for the next 3 or 4 years? They won in spite of them and because they had a solid base of mostly homegrown pitching. Washington doesnt presently have that luxury.

[slotdirt]

The park they built for the Nats is fine, but the problem is that you still have the best ballpark in all of baseball like 45 miles away, so that kind of takes away from the novelty of the place. The second problem for the Nationals is that DC is such a transient place that virtually any team with half a fan base (Phillies, Mets, Cardinals, even the Tigers) almost always outnumber Nationals fans when they come to town.

Do I think the Werth signing was smart? Absolutely not. But in the absence of the club's future for at least next season, does it make sense from a marketing perspective? Absolutely.

[Bigsmc]

Benoit and Pena gone...

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/ml...ory?id=5898142

Crawford and Soriano next.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The park they built for the Nats is fine, but the problem is that you still have the best ballpark in all of baseball like 45 miles away, so that kind of takes away from the novelty of the place. The second problem for the Nationals is that DC is such a transient place that virtually any team with half a fan base (Phillies, Mets, Cardinals, even the Tigers) almost always outnumber Nationals fans when they come to town.

Do I think the Werth signing was smart? Absolutely not. But in the absence of the club's future for at least next season, does it make sense from a marketing perspective? Absolutely.

I can't agree with your marketing take. Werth isn't a big name player. He just isn't. They arent getting a significant spike in attendance because of Jason Werth.

If they signed Jeter or Big Papi for 3 years I would say that it was done as a marketing move. But this is a 7 year, 126 million dollar contract for a good not great, fairly anonymous guy. If they signed him as a marketing move it is worse than if they signed him as a baseball move. In April Forbes estimated the entire net worth of the nationals at $378 million. Are you telling me Jason Werth is worth 1/3 of the value of your entire franchise? By any measure?

[slotdirt]

WHen your big name signings since the team moved here were guys like Jason Marquis and Cristian Guzman, Jayson Werth is a pretty huge name.

Cannon, trust me, nobody went to Nationals games last year unless Strasburg was pitching. If they can ink Lee, I bet he'd have a similar effect. I can see why they're doing what they're doing, though like you, I don't know how successful it will be in a town where the baseball team has already left twice in the last fifty years.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

WHen your big name signings since the team moved here were guys like Jason Marquis and Cristian Guzman, Jayson Werth is a pretty huge name.

Cannon, trust me, nobody went to Nationals games last year unless Strasburg was pitching. If they can ink Lee, I bet he'd have a similar effect. I can see why they're doing what they're doing, though like you, I don't know how successful it will be in a town where the baseball team has already left twice in the last fifty years.

I agree.....the Nats are looking for relevancy to their fan base. If the fans feel management is trying...they'll increase the crowds hopefully.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

WHen your big name signings since the team moved here were guys like Jason Marquis and Cristian Guzman, Jayson Werth is a pretty huge name.

Cannon, trust me, nobody went to Nationals games last year unless Strasburg was pitching. If they can ink Lee, I bet he'd have a similar effect. I can see why they're doing what they're doing, though like you, I don't know how successful it will be in a town where the baseball team has already left twice in the last fifty years.

I dont have a problem with Werth per se. I have a problem with 7 years.

If you want to create buzz sign Carlos Pena for 2 years and 25 million. He probably would have done that. Then you solve a area of weakness, get a 2nd tier star to promote and in 2 years from now hopefully some of your prospects will be major league ready and you can get another pick for Pena if he plays well.

Destroying your salary flexibility by signing creeping up on past their prime guys to long term, impossible to move if they go wrong contracts is a killer. Lee if signed may make 16 starts at Home. Can anyone really justify the amount of money that they will need to pay to get him for 16 starts? He proved in Seattle that he doesn't walk on water and wont make a bad team good. Signing these guys is folly because it will prevent them from addressing all the other issues they have unless they are prepared to double their current salary levels.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Werth is a big mistake. This would be a monumental mistake unless they are ready to join the $150 million a year payroll. Werth and Lee alone would be 45 million. I guess the lessons of the SF world Series win are lost on the nats.

It's only a mistake if his signing and potential failure prohibits them from adding payroll.. My understanding is the family is extremely wealthy WAY more then the Yanks ownership.. If they really dont give a crap about P/L and only care about making the franchise a success on the field..Then who gives a dam about 40mil xtra over 7 years..

Dan Snyder hasnt made a good signing EVER yet the Skins always have money to waste on anything on the Xmas list.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

It's only a mistake if his signing and potential failure prohibits them from adding payroll.. My understanding is the family is extremely wealthy WAY more then the Yanks ownership.. If they really dont give a crap about P/L and only care about making the franchise a success on the field..Then who gives a dam about 40mil xtra over 7 years..

Dan Snyder hasnt made a good signing EVER yet the Skins always have money to waste on anything on the Xmas list.

They may be wealthy but they dont have 20% of the revenues that the Yankees do. That is why there is a great chasm in baseball payrolls that isnt found in other team sports.

The thing is that overpaying guys doesnt make them better or younger. The extra 40 million could be an entire bullpen outside of a closer for 4 years. If they signed Joey Votto to the same deal it is a home run. Werth is an upgrade in right field. But at the plate he isnt really an upgrade over Dunn who Chicago got for 70 million less. If Lerner has the stomach to sponsor a $150 million dollar payroll, well I give him credit and say thats great. But i still think they are going to regret this contract like the Cubs regret the Soriano deal.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They may be wealthy but they dont have 20% of the revenues that the Yankees do. That is why there is a great chasm in baseball payrolls that isnt found in other team sports.

The thing is that overpaying guys doesnt make them better or younger. The extra 40 million could be an entire bullpen outside of a closer for 4 years. If they signed Joey Votto to the same deal it is a home run. Werth is an upgrade in right field. But at the plate he isnt really an upgrade over Dunn who Chicago got for 70 million less. If Lerner has the stomach to sponsor a $150 million dollar payroll, well I give him credit and say thats great. But i still think they are going to regret this contract like the Cubs regret the Soriano deal.

Chuck you miss the point... In a lifetime of bad 140mil contracts they will never be less then billionaires.. Basically if they want to sign Crawford for 150 and Lee for 200 it doesnt matter..It's not 400mil this year its 400mil over 7 years ... On 4 bil they earn 400mil a year plus you really think an extra 7 or 37 mil a year in suspect spending matters..

If the Nats become a real team and break even all is good? In Wash if they become a significant team the revenue will be around to support the crazy spending.

The Pirates might be the best value in baseball.. They earn a ton, spend little, and you can still take your your fam of 4 to the gane for 100 bux in box seats.. The same game event at Yanks is 1500.. the Pirates have zero shot of winning but everybody in Pitts can bring their kids to a game and sit in prime seats.. You want to watch the Yanks vs. Baltimore on a tues in July in great seats? Perhaps 1500 will get it done for the night...

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Chuck you miss the point... In a lifetime of bad 140mil contracts they will never be less then billionaires.. Basically if they want to sign Crawford for 150 and Lee for 200 it doesnt matter..It's not 400mil this year its 400mil over 7 years ... On 4 bil they earn 400mil a year plus you really think an extra 7 or 37 mil a year in suspect spending matters..

If the Nats become a real team and break even all is good? In Wash if they become a significant team the revenue will be around to support the crazy spending.

The Pirates might be the best value in baseball.. They earn a ton, spend little, and you can still take your your fam of 4 to the gane for 100 bux in box seats.. The same game event at Yanks is 1500.. the Pirates have zero shot of winning but everybody in Pitts can bring their kids to a game and sit in prime seats.. You want to watch the Yanks vs. Baltimore on a tues in July in great seats? Perhaps 1500 will get it done for the night...

Yeah but where is the plan here Freddy? The Nats don't have the revenue stream yet to support moves like this. How many more games is Jason Werth going to win you? How many more seats is he going to fill?

Wouldn't a more viable plan be to reduce ticket prices, promote the entertainment product and patiently grow a longterm contender? Wouldn't it have been smarter to keep Dunn and overpay him as he was already a popular player in this area?

Werth is a third tier player at best and by no means remotely close to being any kind of draw.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Yeah but where is the plan here Freddy? The Nats don't have the revenue stream yet to support moves like this. How many more games is Jason Werth going to win you? How many more seats is he going to fill?

Wouldn't a more viable plan be to reduce ticket prices, promote the entertainment product and patiently grow a longterm contender? Wouldn't it have been smarter to keep Dunn and overpay him as he was already a popular player in this area?

Werth is a third tier player at best and by no means remotely close to being any kind of draw.

Agreed. With so many (relatively) cheap, short term options available why not wait till a real star player comes on the market? Sign Derrick lee to play first. Give him 10 million for a 1 year deal. Take a shot on a japanese guy and try to pave the way to take a shot at Yu Darvish next year. They have a 5 star catching prospect that should be ready in 2012. Play Flores and Ramos instead of Pudge and try to elevate their stature and deal them to a team looking for a young catcher. Sign cheap guys like they did with Capps and flip them to contenders in need. Look what Seattle did with Lee last year. Traded away 3 non-star prospects for Lee and then flipped him for a 5 star prospect at the deadline.

[Cannon Shell]

Supposedly Boston signed Carl Crawford 7 years/142 million.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Chuck you miss the point... In a lifetime of bad 140mil contracts they will never be less then billionaires.. Basically if they want to sign Crawford for 150 and Lee for 200 it doesnt matter..It's not 400mil this year its 400mil over 7 years ... On 4 bil they earn 400mil a year plus you really think an extra 7 or 37 mil a year in suspect spending matters..

If the Nats become a real team and break even all is good? In Wash if they become a significant team the revenue will be around to support the crazy spending.

The Pirates might be the best value in baseball.. They earn a ton, spend little, and you can still take your your fam of 4 to the gane for 100 bux in box seats.. The same game event at Yanks is 1500.. the Pirates have zero shot of winning but everybody in Pitts can bring their kids to a game and sit in prime seats.. You want to watch the Yanks vs. Baltimore on a tues in July in great seats? Perhaps 1500 will get it done for the night...

I have no interest in the owners personal fortune. There just isnt a whole lot of evidence that owners in any sport are real willing or happy to eat big contracts time and time again.

Sure the bottom feeders have shown that you can make a profit by spending as little as possible and collecting the shared revenue. No one is debating that. The issue here isnt if Lerner has the money to spend. It is that spending money unwisely on long term contract to less than proven guys is almost always detrimental to your team, it almost never works.

Here is the teams starting staff as of now
Livan hernandez
John Lannan
Jordan Zimmerman
Jason Marquis
Yuneska Maya
or
JD Martin

Think adding Cliff Lee makes them a contender?

Here is their lineup presently
Jason werth
Nyjer Morgan
Josh Willingham
Ryan Zimmerman
Ian Desmond
Danny Figeroa
mystery 1st baseman/ M. Morse/A. LaRoche
I. Rodriguez

Werth and Zimmerman are solid players. Uh thats it.

Wasting tons of money trying to win 78 games instead of 69 is still a waste. You have to spend money to contend, not buy ultra high on 30 something players.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Here is the teams starting staff as of now
Livan hernandez
John Lannan
Jordan Zimmerman
Jason Marquis
Yuneska Maya
or
JD Martin

Think adding Cliff Lee makes them a contender?

Here is their lineup presently
Jason werth
Nyjer Morgan
Josh Willingham
Ryan Zimmerman
Ian Desmond
Danny Figeroa
mystery 1st baseman/ M. Morse/A. LaRoche
I. Rodriguez

Werth and Zimmerman are solid players. Uh thats it.

Wasting tons of money trying to win 78 games instead of 69 is still a waste. You have to spend money to contend, not buy ultra high on 30 something players.

Seriously, all the names they could of used, and they go for Nyjer?