world t bred rankings

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

In regards to Harmonius you're ignoring that she was probably lengths best in the Del Mar Oaks. Evening Jewel got a much better trip and Harmonious drifted out like Swain in the stretch.

Harmonius showed much more speed than ever before and absolutely obliterated Evening Jewel by an extremely lopsided margin for a turf race at Keeneland.

I don't disagree that she was better than EJ when EJ beat her in the Del Mar Oaks .. but that doesn't mean you have to pretend that she didn't improve a ton in her next race when Shirreffs started to drill on her.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Harmonius showed much more speed than ever before and absolutely obliterated Evening Jewel by an extremely lopsided margin for a turf race at Keeneland.

I don't disagree that she was better than EJ when EJ beat her in the Del Mar Oaks .. but that doesn't mean you have to pretend that she didn't improve a ton in her next race when Shirreffs started to drill on her.

Dougie..

Not that we need it, but for further evidence of Shirreffs' skill in the prep/drill department, dig up Giacomo's page through the Derby. The works leading up to and on the Sunday or Monday before Derby showed the same screw-tightening method. While the race ultimately fell in his lap, Giacomo was at least ready to run the best race he was capable of that day, and that's all you can ask of a horse.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Dougie..

Not that we need it, but for further evidence of Shirreffs' skill in the prep/drill department, dig up Giacomo's page through the Derby. The works leading up to and on the Sunday or Monday before Derby showed the same screw-tightening method. While the race ultimately fell in his lap, Giacomo was at least ready to run the best race he was capable of that day, and that's all you can ask of a horse.

I remember thinking he would be a good bet because of the way he looked in the Santa Anita Derby only to get off him because everyone was talking about final fraction and times.

and I was convinced Closing Argument would run 2nd.

polycrap has ruined most of the derby prep race axioms I used to hold.
maybe with Santa Anita going back to dirt, Cali horses will be relevant again.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

I remember thinking he would be a good bet because of the way he looked in the Santa Anita Derby only to get off him because everyone was talking about final fraction and times.

and I was convinced Closing Argument would run 2nd.

John..

You have no excuse! If you go back to the Yahoo DT, and you were certainly a member then, you'll recall that I wrote extensively about that Santa Anita Derby and was high on the top 4 coming out of it. And the funny thing is that the horse who may have been most likely from it, General John B (Roger Stein!), got hurt and couldn't make Derby. Wilko (6th) and Buzzard's Bay (5th) both turned in solid efforts in the Derby though, further confirming the form coming out of Santa Anita...

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

has wilko sired a winner yet?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

has wilko sired a winner yet?

His progeny are yearlings. They hit the track in '11.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Kasept

John..

You have no excuse! If you go back to the Yahoo DT, and you were certainly a member then, you'll recall that I wrote extensively about that Santa Anita Derby and was high on the top 4 coming out of it. And the funny thing is that the horse who may have been most likely from it, General John B (Roger Stein!), got hurt and couldn't make Derby. Wilko (6th) and Buzzard's Bay (5th) both turned in solid efforts in the Derby though, further confirming the form coming out of Santa Anita...

this can't be right; there's an obvious bias against west coast horses!!

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Kasept

John..

You have no excuse! If you go back to the Yahoo DT, and you were certainly a member then, you'll recall that I wrote extensively about that Santa Anita Derby and was high on the top 4 coming out of it. And the funny thing is that the horse who may have been most likely from it, General John B (Roger Stein!), got hurt and couldn't make Derby. Wilko (6th) and Buzzard's Bay (5th) both turned in solid efforts in the Derby though, further confirming the form coming out of Santa Anita...

I can neither confirm or deny what was said by you on Yahoo DT. There was plenty of criticism of that SA Derby. It could have been the OTB gang. It was one hell of an opportunity lost. (for me anyway) Hope you cashed.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Harmonius showed much more speed than ever before and absolutely obliterated Evening Jewel by an extremely lopsided margin for a turf race at Keeneland.

I don't disagree that she was better than EJ when EJ beat her in the Del Mar Oaks .. but that doesn't mean you have to pretend that she didn't improve a ton in her next race when Shirreffs started to drill on her.

I'm not pretending, I agree. But why leave out that part?

You don't have to pretend Blame didn't improve in the Classic, because you have some weird thing against his campaign. He did and the prep served it's purpose.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You don't have to pretend Blame didn't improve in the Classic, because you have some weird thing against his campaign. He did and the prep served it's purpose.

Obviously he improved - but in my opinion because of pace...the same reason Fly Down improved. Fly Down got bounced around and didn't have the most candy of trips - and still Blame didn't improve on him from the JCGC to the BC Classic.

It's pretty sad if we have horses running 5 times a year like Blame did - and they have trainers keeping them short like you believe. Stall didn't want to have him to sharp because he might bounce from the stress of a big race and his hard campaign? Come on.

It's a prep because he lost and ran slightly below par. It's a prep for Fly Down because he lost and ran slightly below par. I suppose it was the Super Bowl for Haynesfield because he was loose on an easy lead and ran huge.

That stuff is so after the fact. If Rail Trip was sharp and set a real strong pace and ran Haynesfield into the ground - and Blame and Fly Down come swooping by and the pace sets up so Blame runs a 109 Beyer .. than it's not a prep.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Obviously he improved - but in my opinion because of pace...the same reason Fly Down improved. Fly Down got bounced around and didn't have the most candy of trips - and still Blame didn't improve on him from the JCGC to the BC Classic.

It's pretty sad if we have horses running 5 times a year like Blame did - and they have trainers keeping them short like you believe. Stall didn't want to have him to sharp because he might bounce from the stress of a big race and his hard campaign? Come on.

It's a prep because he lost and ran slightly below par. It's a prep for Fly Down because he lost and ran slightly below par. I suppose it was the Super Bowl for Haynesfield because he was loose on an easy lead and ran huge.

That stuff is so after the fact. If Rail Trip was sharp and set a real strong pace and ran Haynesfield into the ground - and Blame and Fly Down come swooping by and the pace sets up so Blame runs a 109 Beyer .. than it's not a prep.

Personally, I think the jock switch also helped Fly Down a bit.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Obviously he improved - but in my opinion because of pace...the same reason Fly Down improved. Fly Down got bounced around and didn't have the most candy of trips - and still he didn't improve on Blame from the JCGC to the BC Classic.

It's pretty sad if we have horses running 5 times a year like Blame did - and they have trainers keeping them short like you believe. Stall didn't want to have him to sharp because he might bounce from the stress of a big race and his hard campaign? Come on.

It's a prep because he lost and ran slightly below par. It's a prep for Fly Down because he lost and ran slightly below par. I suppose it was the Super Bowl for Haynesfield because he was loose on an easy lead and ran huge.

That stuff is so after the fact. If Rail Trip was sharp and set a real strong pace and ran Haynesfield into the ground - and Blame and Fly Down come swooping by and the pace sets up so Blame runs a 109 Beyer .. than it's not a prep.

You are smarter than this, I know it. And it's not after the fact. I said it right after the JCGC and before the Classic.

It's weird, you use Beyers when they suit your arguement, but not when they don't.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You are smarter than this, I know it. And it's not after the fact. I said it right after the JCGC and before the Classic.

After the JCGC is after the fact. That's as after the fact as it gets.

You said it because the horse ran worse than you expected and you expect him to bounce back and run better in the next race.

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's weird, you use Beyers when they suit your arguement, but not when they don't

The Beyers improved between the two races because his circumstances improved. Same exact thing with JCGC 3rd place finisher Fly Down.

The Beyer declined with Haynesfield because of circumstance.

Trips and circumstances dictate outcomes.

Basically - I believe Blame improved because his setup did. I believe Fly Down improve because his setup did. I believe Haynesfield declined sharply because of the difference of his two trips.

You seem to be saying that Blame improved because his trainer purposefully kept him short for the JCGC .. and Fly Down improved because Zito also purposefully kept him short and couldn't care less if he won the JCGC .. and Haynesfield won the JCGC because it was his Super Bowl .. and he declined sharply in the BC Classic solely because he won the Super Bowl last time and the Classic was just his Pro Bowl game or letdown game and he was over the top.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You seem to be saying that Blame improved because his trainer purposefully kept him short for the JCGC .. and Fly Down improved because Zito also purposefully kept him short and couldn't care less if he won the JCGC .. and Haynesfield won the JCGC because it was his Super Bowl .. and he declined sharply in the BC Classic solely because he won the Super Bowl last time and the Classic was just his Pro Bowl game or letdown game and he was over the top.

This not what I am saying at all and you know it. Read Rollo's post. He explains it pretty well.

The after the fact stuff is a nice touch though. Especially coming from you.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

The after the fact stuff is a nice touch though. Especially coming from you.

It's totally after the fact! If Blame won the race by five - would you still say it was a prep and he was short?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It's pretty sad if we have horses running 5 times a year like Blame did - and they have trainers keeping them short like you believe. Stall didn't want to have him to sharp because he might bounce from the stress of a big race and his hard campaign? Come on.

And yet you're totally comfortable proclaiming Zenyatta, with her arduous 6-race campaign, as merely prepping in her pre-BC starts simply because she uncorked a bullet work right before the race.

I guess Blame working in :58+ with stablemate Apart (who subsequently took a Graded Stakes) before the Classic isn't considered a "screw tightening" program.

John Shirreffs is clearly the only trainer in North America who knows how to get a horse ready for a big effort. He's the greatest horseman alive.

To bad his sportsmanship is inversely proportional to his horsemanship.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

And yet you're totally comfortable proclaiming Zenyatta, with her arduous 6-race campaign, as merely prepping in her pre-BC starts simply because she uncorked a bullet work right before the race.

I guess Blame working in :58+ with stablemate Apart (who subsequently took a Graded Stakes) before the Classic isn't considered a "screw tightening" program.

John Shirreffs is clearly the only trainer in North America who knows how to get a horse ready for a big effort. He's the greatest horseman alive.

To bad his sportsmanship is inversely proportional to his horsemanship.

Shirreffs is the single greatest trainer I've ever seen with workouts. Look at his records with first time starters when he had 505 farms

He has developed a pattern of doing this stuff with established stakes horses. It's why I liked Life Is Sweet in the Distaff so much last year.

As for Blame's 58.80 work - you have to consider the speed of the race track - a 2-year-old maiden named Impersonataor actually worked a 58.40 bullet that morning .. and he was off the board in his next start. I doubt it was anything like Zenyatta's two works .. where she worked with two horses, a fresh horse was thrown at her in the middle of the work, and she worked for almost a furlong past the wire.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He has developed a pattern of doing this stuff with established stakes horses. It's why I liked Life Is Sweet in the Distaff so much last year.

Just like this year's JCGC, I think the 2009 BC Distaff was a result of the pace and not Life Is Sweet's specific workout pattern.

You wearing a Mill Ridge baseball cap as you type this filth?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Just like this year's JCGC, I think the 2009 BC Distaff was a result of the pace and not Life Is Sweet's specific workout pattern.

You wearing a Mill Ridge baseball cap as you type this filth?

You're probably right - that was the other reason I liked Life Is Sweet. She finished behind Letheal Heat twice in a row - and rolled in the BC Distaff.

I wish you would have told Serling that Mott was tanking Unrivaled Belle on Super Saturday... because he called her a lock for that race. Do the man a favor!