Privman: Let the Horse of the Year Debate Begin

[slotdirt]

DrugS and CSC in perfect agreement on the HOTY discussion. That should tell someone something.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

DrugS and CSC in perfect agreement on the HOTY discussion. That should tell someone something.

I don't think we're in that much agreement. If I had a vote - which I don't - I would piss it away on Uncle Mo as a form of protest.

I put the over/under on total number of votes Uncle Mo gets for Horse of the Year at 1.5

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I don't think we're in that much agreement. If I had a vote - which I don't - I would piss it away on Uncle Mo as a form of protest.

I put the over/under on total number of votes Uncle Mo gets for Horse of the Year at 1.5

I pegged you for a Presque Isle vote myself.

[CSC]

One thing I will add, Goldikova should not be HOY if anyone has any ideas.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I pegged you for a Presque Isle vote myself.

Chamberlin Bridge broke his maiden at Presque Isle for a maiden 25k claiming tag.

My haterd for turf sprint races knows no bounds. If they ever give an eclipse for Champion Turf Sprinter - I would abstain from using my non-existant vote every year.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Chamberlin Bridge broke his maiden at Presque Isle for a maiden 25k claiming tag.

My haterd for turf sprint races knows no bounds. If they ever give an eclipse for Champion Turf Sprinter - I would abstain from using my non-existant vote every year.

Used Unzip me in that race. Don't know why really.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

DrugS and CSC in perfect agreement on the HOTY discussion. That should tell someone something.

I edited, Blame should get it, but it's a nose difference. Hey I can give credit when I see a well argued point.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

DrugS and CSC in perfect agreement on the HOTY discussion. That should tell someone something.

[classhandicapper]

I hate the idea of these soft, selective, extra well spaced campaigns as much as the next guy, but I think we are going to have to get used to it.

Many trainers believe that spacing maximizes the chances of keeping a horse fresh for a full year and that really fast and tough races wear a horse down. Since the BC is now such a huge target, that gives them ample motivation to look for easy spots, to skip races, and to avoid tough ones. They also have opportunity to do so because there are many stakes around the country to look for those easier spots.

I'm not sure which of the two is the better horse based on the Classic. I'm still looking at the replay of the start of the race and other things. But I'm a huge Zenyatta fan and think being this good on two surfaces is rather mind boggling, but I'd still vote for Blame. The precedent is to vote the best older male unless the division wasn't sorted out or was very weak and someone else was a monster. It's also not typical to make a lot of subjective judgments about pace, trip, bias etc... and evaluate horses that way. Usually whoever wins on the track gets the edge.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I hate the idea of these soft, selective, extra well spaced campaigns as much as the next guy, but I think we are going to have to get used to it.

Many trainers believe that spacing maximizes the chances of keeping a horse fresh for a full year and that really fast and tough races wear a horse down. Since the BC is now such a huge target, that gives them ample motivation to look for easy spots, to skip races, and to avoid tough ones. They also have opportunity to do so because there are many stakes around the country to look for those easier spots.

Obviously - you're 100% right.

However, that doesn't mean the voters for the year end awards need to reward horses who are campaigned in this fashion solely because of how they performed in the Classic.

Go back to Awesome Again's perfect season in 1998 where he beat the toughest field ever assembled in BC Classic history and failed to win Horse of the Year - he was campaigned similarly to Blame.



He had the entrie winter off - came back against complete dogs in an easy race - stepped it up in solid editions of the Foster and Whitney for his next two. He won with the comment "hand ride" in every race that year but the Foster and BC Classic.

Even though it was the best field of horses ever assembled for a BC Classic - a lot of those big horses had very tough seasons and ran like they were over-the-top in that race.

Gentlemen put in a race similar to Life At Ten's performance Saturday. Skip Away struggled mightily. Silver Charm ran three times in the Strub Series, shipped to Dubai and won the World Cup - and made something like 3 or 4 different cross-country ships for races that year after he came back from Dubai. You don't see many horses do what Victory Gallop did anymore as far as running in all three triple crown races, the Haskell, the Travers, and BC Classic as a 3yo. Coronado's Quest made his 10th of 11 starts that season in the BC Classic. Running Stag was a machine, he ran in France, Germany, England, Dubai, Hong Kong, and America.

Blame's own sire Arch was in that race - he only managed to beat a single horse... the DNF Gentlemen.

I realize that HOY voters don't have other optins like they had in 1998 - but Blame is no Awesome Again either. Awesome Again was an extremely handy and tactical horse. When Tale of the Cat stole a 25 flat first quarter on the lead in the Whitney - Day just let him out a little and he shot right past ToftheC like nothing and outsprinted him down the backstretch. When the pace was strong in the Classic - he could take back and finsh strong.

[Dahoss]

What are the options though DrugS? And don't give me Uncle Mo, because that is ridiculous. If it isn't Blame because in your opinion his campaign was lame, then it can't be Zenyatta either. So who is it? Blind Luck? Proviso? Who else could even be considered?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What are the options though DrugS? And don't give me Uncle Mo, because that is ridiculous. If it isn't Blame because in your opinion his campaign was lame, then it can't be Zenyatta either. So who is it? Blind Luck? Proviso? Who else could even be considered?

Like I said, I would waste a vote on Uncle Mo as a protest vote.

I certainly believe he's a better 2-year-old than Favorite Trick in 1997 - and I believe Blame would have got absolutely murdered by the older horses in 1997 (Skip Away, Formal Gold, Gentlemen, Will's Way) ... and yet in '97 the older males beat each other often enough to split HOY votes among them while Favorite Trick dominated the tard vote and took HOY.

So, there is enough precedence with that angle. If Uncle Mo didn't run so sensationally - Goldikova.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Like I said, I would waste a vote on Uncle Mo as a protest vote.

I certainly believe he's a better 2-year-old than Favorite Trick in 1997 - and I believe Blame would have got absolutely murdered by the older horses in 1997 (Skip Away, Formal Gold, Gentlemen, Will's Way) ... and yet in '97 the older males beat each other often enough to split HOY votes among them while Favorite Trick dominated the tard vote and took HOY.

So, there is enough precedence with that angle. If Uncle Mo didn't run so sensationally - Goldikova.

And you think giving Uncle Mo HOY is going to deter campaigns like we have seen this year? I don't.

Pletcher already said he only wants to give Uncle Mo two preps next year before the Derby. This is the game now, for better or worse. I don't know how to change it, but not giving the most deserving horse an award he deserves isn't the way.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Obviously - you're 100% right.

However, that doesn't mean the voters for the year end awards need to reward horses who are campaigned in this fashion solely because of how they performed in the Classic.

Go back to Awesome Again's perfect season in 1998 where he beat the toughest field ever assembled in BC Classic history and failed to win Horse of the Year - he was campaigned similarly to Blame.



He had the entrie winter off - came back against complete dogs in an easy race - stepped it up in solid editions of the Foster and Whitney for his next two. He won with the comment "hand ride" in every race that year but the Foster and BC Classic.

Even though it was the best field of horses ever assembled for a BC Classic - a lot of those big horses had very tough seasons and ran like they were over-the-top in that race.

Gentlemen put in a race similar to Life At Ten's performance Saturday. Skip Away struggled mightily. Silver Charm ran three times in the Strub Series, shipped to Dubai and won the World Cup - and made something like 3 or 4 different cross-country ships for races that year after he came back from Dubai. You don't see many horses do what Victory Gallop did anymore as far as running in all three triple crown races, the Haskell, the Travers, and BC Classic as a 3yo. Coronado's Quest made his 10th of 11 starts that season in the BC Classic. Running Stag was a machine, he ran in France, Germany, England, Dubai, Hong Kong, and America.

Blame's own sire Arch was in that race - he only managed to beat a single horse... the DNF Gentlemen.

I realize that HOY voters don't have other optins like they had in 1998 - but Blame is no Awesome Again either. Awesome Again was an extremely handy and tactical horse. When Tale of the Cat stole a 25 flat first quarter on the lead in the Whitney - Day just let him out a little and he shot right past ToftheC like nothing and outsprinted him down the backstretch. When the pace was strong in the Classic - he could take back and finsh strong.

Awesome Again is among my 3-4 favorite horses of all time, and his '98 campaign was amazing- but to use his loss as a reason Blame shouldn't win HOY is folly. You're then discrediting Skip Away, who only won the Donn, GPH, Pimlico Special, Mass Cap, Hollywood Gold Cup, Iselin, and Woodward- before going off form the last two races. Like any horse in 2010 would have a campaign even close to that.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Awesome Again is among my 3-4 favorite horses of all time, and his '98 campaign was amazing- but to use his loss as a reason Blame shouldn't win HOY is folly.

I did nothing of the sort Phillip.

I also never even said Blame shouldn't win HOY - I have just argued that if I had a vote - I wouldn't vote for him.

Blame's campaign was similar to Awesome Again - but in my opinion - the quality of most of his performances and quality of his competition certainly were not.