Valiant loss puts Zenyatta's prowess in perspective

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by CSC

Mig and Haskin just used the Seattle Slew analogy I used Saturday in defeat, have a listen on Steve's show. Coach should have a listen also.

Okay, you're still not getting it.
There is absolutely no question in my mind that your statement:
"she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race"
is incorrect.

Let's take your Slew example. Of course he gained a great deal of respect by running such a good race against how the race set up and running a good second to a great horse. But if we apply your above statement to that race it implies that if he had done that same thing and actually managed to hold off Exceller and won the race he would get/deserve less respect than he got for running a good second.
That is completely nonsensical.

Let me break it down for you further:

Yes, both horses second-place finishes earned them more respect than they had before the race.
But, no, both horses second-place finishes did NOT earn them more respect than they would have received if they had actually won their races.....which is what you said.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Okay, you're still not getting it.
There is absolutely no question in my mind that your statement:
"she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race"
is incorrect.

Let's take your Slew example. Of course he gained a great deal of respect by running such a good race against how the race set up and running a good second to a great horse. But your statement that I highlighted reads that if he had done that same thing and actually managed to hold off Exceller and won the race he would get/deserve less respect than he got for running a good second.
That is completely nonsensical.

Let me break it down for you further:

Yes, both horses second-place finishes earned them more respect than they had before the race.
No, both horses second-place finishes did NOT earn them more respect than they would have received if they had actually won their races.....which is what you said.

Then either you misunderstood what I wrote or the context was not the way I intended it. When I say something like Zenyatta lost nothing in defeat, comparing it to Seattle Slew's defeat. I expect a person of knowledege, as I expect from you to know exactly the context I was using it as. If the wording confused you, I duelly regret this. Now that you understand the analogy do you not agree in Mig and Haskin's view?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by CSC

Then either you misunderstood what I wrote or the context was not the way I intended it. When I say something like Zenyatta lost nothing in defeat, comparing it to Seattle Slew's defeat. I expect a person of knowledege, as I expect from you to know exactly the context I was using it as. If the wording confused you, I duelly regret this. Now that you understand the analogy do you not agree in Mig and Haskin's view?

The problem is you are about as bad as it gets in expressing yourself. You think by trying to talk smart, it'll make you sound smart. It doesn't. Your opinion is often very confusing to decipher. That's on you. No one else.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

The problem is you are about as bad as it gets in expressing yourself. You think by trying to talk smart, it'll make you sound smart. It doesn't. Your opinion is often very confusing to decipher. That's on you. No one else.

I've seen your multiple aliases, you on the other hand are easy to spot with your MO. No problem deciphering you.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by CSC

I've seen your multiple aliases, you on the other hand are easy to spot with your MO. No problem deciphering you.

Thanks for proving my point.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Thanks for proving my point.

That's it, no worries, I'm sure you will have no trouble picking/finding a fight at PA.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by CSC

That's it, no worries, I'm sure you will have no trouble picking/finding a fight at PA.

The board you got banned from? Seems like you seem to find fights where you go also.

I'm not picking a fight. I'm explaining to you why people often misunderstand you. It's because you pretend you are smart and it comes off very confusing.

Instead of addressing what is said you change the goalposts in some sort of "gotcha" game that you always lose. It's pretty amusing actually.

[Smooth Operator]

Enjoyed the article … but don't buy his high opinion of RA

Thought she was overrated last year … and her disappointing 2010 campaign helped to prove that.

[Indian Charlie]

Lol.

Lmao.

Lmfao.

Lmfaoaso.

Soiafr!

[tector]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Enjoyed the article … but don't buy his high opinion of RA

Thought she was overrated last year … and her disappointing 2010 campaign helped to prove that.

It rained today, therefore it rained last week, too.

Start with Aristotle and tell me when you get to David Hume.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by CSC

Then either you misunderstood what I wrote or the context was not the way I intended it. When I say something like Zenyatta lost nothing in defeat, comparing it to Seattle Slew's defeat. I expect a person of knowledege, as I expect from you to know exactly the context I was using it as. If the wording confused you, I duelly regret this. Now that you understand the analogy do you not agree in Mig and Haskin's view?

I continue to vehemently disagree with this statement of yours: "she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race." However, I think you have recognized the ridiculousness of that statement and (in your way) sort of retracted it so we'll let that go.

That has nothing to do with the rest of the discussion you are trying to have. As I've already said about 50 times, I do think more of Zenyatta after the race than I did going into the race. So, in that way the analogy to Slew in the JCGC certainly works.

However, I think it is probably important to note that in that race the dynamics of the race worked AGAINST Slew, and he still turned in that performance. That is why his reputation grew even in defeat. In the case of the recent BCC, the race set up IN FAVOR of Zenyatta. So I certainly do not think her performance was anywhere close to what Slew did in '78.

That being said, if you told me before the race that the pace was going to be what it was and that the race would have totally melted down the way it did, I would have predicted that Zito's and Baffert's 3yo colts would have finished in front of Zenyatta. That's why I wagered on LaL. Zenyatta flew by both of them down the stretch, and nearly got to Blame too, so because of that, I think she's better now than I did before the race. But that doesn't mean that she did what Slew did or (even more preposterously) that she would deserve or get less credit if she had won.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I continue to vehemently disagree with this statement of yours: "she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race." However, I think you have recognized the ridiculousness of that statement and (in your way) sort of retracted it so we'll let that go.

That has nothing to do with the rest of the discussion you are trying to have. As I've already said about 50 times, I do think more of Zenyatta after the race than I did going into the race. So, in that way the analogy to Slew in the JCGC certainly works.

However, I think it is probably important to note that in that race the dynamics of the race worked AGAINST Slew, and he still turned in that performance. That is why his reputation grew even in defeat. In the case of the recent BCC, the race set up IN FAVOR of Zenyatta. So I certainly do not think her performance was anywhere close to what Slew did in '78.

That being said, if you told me before the race that the pace was going to be what it was and that the race would have totally melted down the way it did, I would have predicted that Zito's and Baffert's 3yo colts would have finished in front of Zenyatta. That's why I wagered on LaL. Zenyatta flew by both of them down the stretch, and nearly got to Blame too, so because of that, I think she's better now than I did before the race. But that doesn't mean that she did what Slew did or (even more preposterously) that she would deserve or get less credit if she had won.

I too thought about pointing out the race shape of the Slew race vs the race shape of the BCC, but I concluded that it would be pointless, as he'd be unwilling to try to understand the difference between the two races.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I continue to vehemently disagree with this statement of yours: "she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race." However, I think you have recognized the ridiculousness of that statement and (in your way) sort of retracted it so we'll let that go.

That has nothing to do with the rest of the discussion you are trying to have. As I've already said about 50 times, I do think more of Zenyatta after the race than I did going into the race. So, in that way the analogy to Slew in the JCGC certainly works.

However, I think it is probably important to note that in that race the dynamics of the race worked AGAINST Slew, and he still turned in that performance. That is why his reputation grew even in defeat. In the case of the recent BCC, the race set up IN FAVOR of Zenyatta. So I certainly do not think her performance was anywhere close to what Slew did in '78.

That being said, if you told me before the race that the pace was going to be what it was and that the race would have totally melted down the way it did, I would have predicted that Zito's and Baffert's 3yo colts would have finished in front of Zenyatta. That's why I wagered on LaL. Zenyatta flew by both of them down the stretch, and nearly got to Blame too, so because of that, I think she's better now than I did before the race. But that doesn't mean that she did what Slew did or (even more preposterously) that she would deserve or get less credit if she had won.

I disagree whether she won by a nose or lost by a nose, in the context of doubt whether she can handle dirt. A win or loss is not going a huge swing in sentiment with critics and fans alike. The question has been answered. Obcourse a win is better record wise, that is obvious. But I think you would agree that was not the main question we were waiting for the last 3 years.

[horseofcourse]

I thought it was a very fair article by My Beyer and was on point. I like Zenyatta. That's it.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

I thought it was a very fair article by My Beyer and was on point. I like Zenyatta. That's it.

Amen.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Then either you misunderstood what I wrote or the context was not the way I intended it. When I say something like Zenyatta lost nothing in defeat, comparing it to Seattle Slew's defeat. I expect a person of knowledege, as I expect from you to know exactly the context I was using it as. If the wording confused you, I duelly regret this. Now that you understand the analogy do you not agree in Mig and Haskin's view?

The difference is that Seattle Slews valiant loss came after he had been an undefeated TC winner and overcame terrible management to win several truly great races. Zenyatta's is basically the measure of her greatness.