Valiant loss puts Zenyatta's prowess in perspective

[CSC]

Still quiet...This exerpt from Mr. Beyer should get the critics riled up:

However, Zenyatta's fans can make a reasonable claim that she should be considered the greatest U.S. filly or mare of all time. Any argument on the subject will be complicated by the fact that Zenyatta's one-dimensional stretch-running style would put her at a tactical disadvantage on the dirt in a hypothetical matchup against other great fillies such as Ruffian and Rachel Alexandra. But Zenyatta's historic winning streak and her two performances in the Classic constitute a formidable body of work, and nobody ought to hold her one defeat against her.

[Dahoss]

He basically said what everyone here has said since the race ended. Maybe it's quiet because the arguement has been going on for 24 hours already.

Just a guess.

[miraja2]

Hard to disagree with any of that.

Personally I certainly don't think she deserves the title of best filly/mare ever, but for those who do want to make the case that she is, I don't think her 2nd place finish yesterday really detracts from their argument one bit. Obviously their argument would be stronger if she had won the race, but overall I agree with Beyer in thinking more of her today than I did on Friday.

[Smooth Operator]

...Zenyatta's fans can make a reasonable claim that she should be considered the greatest U.S. filly or mare of all time.


Cannon may just fire bomb Andy's house after that one


So ends a truly great career for the most talented older race mare I have ever seen. -- SD


Think he already has a contract out on Davidowitz' life … lol


http://www.gradeoneracing.com/davidowitz.htm?read=74

[Dahoss]

lol

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

...Zenyatta's fans can make a reasonable claim that she should be considered the greatest U.S. filly or mare of all time.


Cannon may just fire bomb Andy's house after that one


So ends a truly great career for the most talented older race mare I have ever seen. -- SD


Think he already has a contract out on Davidowitz' life … lol


http://www.gradeoneracing.com/davidowitz.htm?read=74

I think she is a very good horse. In a year everyone will have forgotten about her and moved on to the next horse of the century.

SD obviously missed the Mile

[10 pnt move up]

It amazes me the comparison of a 6 year old mare losing to a 4 year old colt as the defining race determining her talent and ability.

Its an unprovable opinion but I really think she was at her best as a 4 year old and had this race been run two years ago I am not sure she comes up a head short.

[randallscott35]

She's a useful mare. That win parlay is now zero on her.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think she is a very good horse. In a year everyone will have forgotten about her and moved on to the next horse of the century.

SD obviously missed the Mile

Do you have an opinion why turf fillies/mares fare better against the males? We've seen it in Japan, France, England, here in the BC, however there are not too many dirt females that have any tangible success against male dirt horses. On the surface it would seem turf is a whole different ballgame that allows both sexes to compete on a level playing field, I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just pointing out when a female beats males on turf, I hardly bat an eye anymore.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Do you have an opinion why turf fillies/mares fare better against the males? We've seen it in Japan, France, England, here in the BC, however there are not too many dirt females that have any tangible success against male dirt horses. On the surface it would seem turf is a whole different ballgame that allows both sexes to compete on a level playing field, I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just pointing out when a female beats males on turf, I hardly bat an eye anymore.

I don't know that it would be the case if it was tried more often here. The older horses the past decade with a few notable exceptions have been pretty awful. RA last year was simply better than the 3 yo colts and Z was probably better than the colts this year. You would have hoped that Zenyatta would have taken more chances against colts. Perhaps after her presumed success and the success of RA that more people would try to beat them with really good fillies. Of course if they vote Zenyatta horse of the year after cupcake city and a loss then that would pretty much give the connections of the next great filly precedent to not try to compete with the best horses.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by CSC

Do you have an opinion why turf fillies/mares fare better against the males? We've seen it in Japan, France, England, here in the BC, however there are not too many dirt females that have any tangible success against male dirt horses. On the surface it would seem turf is a whole different ballgame that allows both sexes to compete on a level playing field, I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just pointing out when a female beats males on turf, I hardly bat an eye anymore.

It helps that they try to do it on turf.

However, there are plenty of examples in the last few years of fillies/mares beating males on dirt.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by CSC

Do you have an opinion why turf fillies/mares fare better against the males? We've seen it in Japan, France, England, here in the BC, however there are not too many dirt females that have any tangible success against male dirt horses. On the surface it would seem turf is a whole different ballgame that allows both sexes to compete on a level playing field, I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just pointing out when a female beats males on turf, I hardly bat an eye anymore.

It's all about opportunity and need. In other parts of the world, there has always been a huge disparity between the purses of male and female races so once a female showed she was good enough to try it, it made sense to run her against the boys because the purses just weren't worth it in female races. Over the years as female purses have improved, the mentality has stayed the same. They understand what Americans don't seem to and that is that if given the chance, girls can compete. Here, while the purses aren't equal, they are big enough for the girls to keep them in their own division. You'll get the occassional attempt but then it's usually followed by a return to their own sex. If Zenyatta were trained anywhere else, once she won the Classic, she would have basically stayed in open competition. As others have said, I agree that the reason you haven't seen it more is because of lack of opportunity and not because of a lack of ability.

Just as an aside, after the race I was even more pissed at Zenyatta's connections than before. I really feel cheated because they deprived us of seeing some really great things. She could have run away and hid in the SA Hcp, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic. She could have come east and done some things. Instead, they stayed ultra conservative. I think that had they won some of those other big races, they'd have built up some credits and could withstand a loss in the Classic, sort of like Curlin in 2008 and Cigar in 1996. But by playing it the way they did, they left themselves no room for error and even though many walked away thinking Zenyatta ran the better race, she still lost and that should end any arguments for her to be HOY. To me, it's either Blame or Goldikova.

[Port Conway Lane]

Personally she is the best stretch running filly/mare I have seen since Relaxing. Personal Ensign deserves acknowledgement as well.

Zenyatta's career was truly remarkable and until yesterday it was difficult for me to assess her because of the surface/competition issues.

At the very least we finally got to see her best.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Hard to disagree with any of that.

Personally I certainly don't think she deserves the title of best filly/mare ever, but for those who do want to make the case that she is, I don't think her 2nd place finish yesterday really detracts from their argument one bit. Obviously their argument would be stronger if she had won the race, but overall I agree with Beyer in thinking more of her today than I did on Friday.

This was essentially the point I was trying to make yesterday when we exchanged replies, it was a loss in the record book but it certainly doesn't detract from her legacy. For the record I never said she was the greatest, I think there is this misconception out there by some that if you cheer, admire Zenyatta you get lumped into a group that may or may not think she is the greatest, Beyer hit the nail on this one, anyone that wants to argue that she is the greatest filly/mare ever, can so now without being summarily dismissed. Greatest horse of all time, is a moot point, she is not. (I should have typed mute)

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by CSC

This was essentially the point I was trying to make yesterday when we exchanged replies, it was a loss in the record book but it certainly doesn't detract from her legacy. For the record I never said she was the greatest, I think there is this misconception out there by some that if you cheer, admire Zenyatta you get lumped into a group that may or may not think she is the greatest, Beyer hit the nail on this one, anyone that wants to argue that she is the greatest filly/mare ever, can so now without being summarily dismissed. Greatest horse of all time, is a moot point, she is not. (I should have typed mute)

If that is what you meant to say....okay.
I was confused because what you actually did say was: "she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race."

That obviously makes no sense. She quite clearly would get even more respect if she had gotten past Blame in those final strides than she gets by failing to do so.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by miraja2

If that is what you meant to say....okay.
I was confused because what you actually did say was: "she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race."

That obviously makes no sense. She quite clearly would get even more respect if she had gotten past Blame in those final strides than she gets by failing to do so.

Mig and Haskin just used the Seattle Slew analogy I used Saturday in defeat, have a listen on Steve's show. Coach should have a listen also.

Originally Posted by CSC

Mig and Haskin just used the Seattle Slew analogy I used Saturday in defeat, have a listen on Steve's show. Coach should have a listen also.

Yeah it's totally the same as Seattle Slew.

You're right. Now stfu.









































Just sayin!

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by CSC

Mig and Haskin just used the Seattle Slew analogy I used Saturday in defeat, have a listen on Steve's show. Coach should have a listen also.

Okay, you're still not getting it.
There is absolutely no question in my mind that your statement:
"she will get more respect out of finishing second than winning the race"
is incorrect.

Let's take your Slew example. Of course he gained a great deal of respect by running such a good race against how the race set up and running a good second to a great horse. But if we apply your above statement to that race it implies that if he had done that same thing and actually managed to hold off Exceller and won the race he would get/deserve less respect than he got for running a good second.
That is completely nonsensical.

Let me break it down for you further:

Yes, both horses second-place finishes earned them more respect than they had before the race.
But, no, both horses second-place finishes did NOT earn them more respect than they would have received if they had actually won their races.....which is what you said.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by CSC

Still quiet...This exerpt from Mr. Beyer should get the critics riled up:

However, Zenyatta's fans can make a reasonable claim that she should be considered the greatest U.S. filly or mare of all time. Any argument on the subject will be complicated by the fact that Zenyatta's one-dimensional stretch-running style would put her at a tactical disadvantage on the dirt in a hypothetical matchup against other great fillies such as Ruffian and Rachel Alexandra. But Zenyatta's historic winning streak and her two performances in the Classic constitute a formidable body of work, and nobody ought to hold her one defeat against her.

I've always said that in a hypothetical race between Rachel and Zenyatta, if the distance was 9F and it was a race only open to fillies and mares that Rachel would have the edge because "average" Grade 1 fillies and mares typically would not have enough quality to keep her honest on the lead.

However, if they met at 9F in a race open to Grade 1 males also, I think Zenyatta would have the edge because average Grade 1 males would be of similar quality to both the super star girls and keep Rachel honest allowing Zenyatta to beat her.

If the met at 10F Rachel would need help to beat her no matter what.

I think Zenyatta's connections understood that also and that's why they wanted to get her in the Classic where they would have an enormous advantage because the pace would at least be honest and it would be 10F.

In fact, I think Rachel's connections understood that also and that's why they avoided 10F last year and dropped out after her performance this year at 10F under pressure (sub par or not).

[CSC]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I've always said that in a hypothetical race between Rachel and Zenyatta, if the distance was 9F and it was a race only open to fillies and mares that Rachel would have the edge because "average" Grade 1 fillies and mares typically would not have enough quality to keep her honest on the lead.

However, if they met at 9F in a race open to Grade 1 males also, I think Zenyatta would have the edge because average Grade 1 males would be of similar quality to both the super star girls and keep Rachel honest allowing Zenyatta to beat her.

If the met at 10F Rachel would need help to beat no matter what.

I think Zenyatta's connections understood that also and that's why they wanted to get her in the Classic where they would have an enormous advantage because the pace would at least be honest and it would be 10F.

In fact, I think Rachel's connections understood that also and that's why they avoided 10F last year and dropped out after her performance this year at 10F under pressure (sub par or not).

Looks like I won't get any work done today, yes I agree, in a match race Rachel would have the advantage. With Life at 10's situation Fri, maybe Rachel wins the ladies distaff, she finishes no worst than 2nd in my opinion, if she runs in the classic she probably finishes towards the rear.