Valiant loss puts Zenyatta's prowess in perspective

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think she is a very good horse. In a year everyone will have forgotten about her and moved on to the next horse of the century.

SD obviously missed the Mile

Do you have an opinion why turf fillies/mares fare better against the males? We've seen it in Japan, France, England, here in the BC, however there are not too many dirt females that have any tangible success against male dirt horses. On the surface it would seem turf is a whole different ballgame that allows both sexes to compete on a level playing field, I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just pointing out when a female beats males on turf, I hardly bat an eye anymore.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Do you have an opinion why turf fillies/mares fare better against the males? We've seen it in Japan, France, England, here in the BC, however there are not too many dirt females that have any tangible success against male dirt horses. On the surface it would seem turf is a whole different ballgame that allows both sexes to compete on a level playing field, I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just pointing out when a female beats males on turf, I hardly bat an eye anymore.

I don't know that it would be the case if it was tried more often here. The older horses the past decade with a few notable exceptions have been pretty awful. RA last year was simply better than the 3 yo colts and Z was probably better than the colts this year. You would have hoped that Zenyatta would have taken more chances against colts. Perhaps after her presumed success and the success of RA that more people would try to beat them with really good fillies. Of course if they vote Zenyatta horse of the year after cupcake city and a loss then that would pretty much give the connections of the next great filly precedent to not try to compete with the best horses.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I don't know that it would be the case if it was tried more often here. The older horses the past decade with a few notable exceptions have been pretty awful. RA last year was simply better than the 3 yo colts and Z was probably better than the colts this year. You would have hoped that Zenyatta would have taken more chances against colts. Perhaps after her presumed success and the success of RA that more people would try to beat them with really good fillies. Of course if they vote Zenyatta horse of the year after cupcake city and a loss then that would pretty much give the connections of the next great filly precedent to not try to compete with the best horses.

I'm sure it is tried more often, but I really think grass racing is the equalizer, all these great fillies have one thing in common, turn of foot. I was just thinking, there are not too many fillies that have dominated males, infact I can't think of one, on dirt anyway.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm sure it is tried more often, but I really think grass racing is the equalizer, all these great fillies have one thing in common, turn of foot. I was just thinking, there are not too many fillies that have dominated males, infact I can't think of one, on dirt anyway.

There have been very few American turf mares to beat boys lately on the grass than there has been dirt mares. The fact that the connections of top horses seem to have an aversion to competition won't help. I would have loved to see Zenyatta on the grass (real grass I mean). Hard to believe she wouldnt have been one of the few american horses of the last 30 or so years that may have been good enough with enough stamina to have a shot in the Melbourne Cup

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There have been very few American turf mares to beat boys lately on the grass than there has been dirt mares. The fact that the connections of top horses seem to have an aversion to competition won't help. I would have loved to see Zenyatta on the grass (real grass I mean). Hard to believe she wouldnt have been one of the few american horses of the last 30 or so years that may have been good enough with enough stamina to have a shot in the Melbourne Cup

Officially she isn't retired yet, now the Matriarch was shortened to 8 furlongs so that is out, Japan Cup? I would love to see it, but we know this isn't happening.

[tector]

The whole SoCal plastic track experiment is indeed what complicates things here. If she'd gone 19 for 19 on dirt, then you'd just have to upgrade her. Even the arguments about her not shipping would have been more muted. I have no problems putting her up with the great F&Ms of all time--she belongs in that discussion. But greatest horses of all time? Please. In my race-watching lifetime, just sticking to classic distances on dirt, there are only two horses for sure that I can put on that list--Secretariat and Spectacular Bid. The rest are either a tier below or need a hell of an argument in their favor. And of those (Slew, Affirmed, Ghostzapper, Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, Cigar, etc.), they would routine destroy Zenyatta the way most races shape up. Even horses like Mineshaft or Best Pal would be too much. Her running style just couldn't cut against such types on dirt most of the time.

I will say this--since plastic is on the way out at SA, and HOL is not long for this world, she is likely to be--forever--the great synthetic horse of all-time, of any sex.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by CSC

Do you have an opinion why turf fillies/mares fare better against the males? We've seen it in Japan, France, England, here in the BC, however there are not too many dirt females that have any tangible success against male dirt horses. On the surface it would seem turf is a whole different ballgame that allows both sexes to compete on a level playing field, I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just pointing out when a female beats males on turf, I hardly bat an eye anymore.

It helps that they try to do it on turf.

However, there are plenty of examples in the last few years of fillies/mares beating males on dirt.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

It helps that they try to do it on turf.

However, there are plenty of examples in the last few years of fillies/mares beating males on dirt.

Yeah I know there have been a few, however I mean't races only at the highest level. Certainly not as frequent as in Europe. Someone mentioned Jolypha, her BC Classic is one of the best performances by a filly on dirt that is often overlooked. But that was still only a 3rd.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by CSC

Do you have an opinion why turf fillies/mares fare better against the males? We've seen it in Japan, France, England, here in the BC, however there are not too many dirt females that have any tangible success against male dirt horses. On the surface it would seem turf is a whole different ballgame that allows both sexes to compete on a level playing field, I'm not knocking anyone, I'm just pointing out when a female beats males on turf, I hardly bat an eye anymore.

It's all about opportunity and need. In other parts of the world, there has always been a huge disparity between the purses of male and female races so once a female showed she was good enough to try it, it made sense to run her against the boys because the purses just weren't worth it in female races. Over the years as female purses have improved, the mentality has stayed the same. They understand what Americans don't seem to and that is that if given the chance, girls can compete. Here, while the purses aren't equal, they are big enough for the girls to keep them in their own division. You'll get the occassional attempt but then it's usually followed by a return to their own sex. If Zenyatta were trained anywhere else, once she won the Classic, she would have basically stayed in open competition. As others have said, I agree that the reason you haven't seen it more is because of lack of opportunity and not because of a lack of ability.

Just as an aside, after the race I was even more pissed at Zenyatta's connections than before. I really feel cheated because they deprived us of seeing some really great things. She could have run away and hid in the SA Hcp, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic. She could have come east and done some things. Instead, they stayed ultra conservative. I think that had they won some of those other big races, they'd have built up some credits and could withstand a loss in the Classic, sort of like Curlin in 2008 and Cigar in 1996. But by playing it the way they did, they left themselves no room for error and even though many walked away thinking Zenyatta ran the better race, she still lost and that should end any arguments for her to be HOY. To me, it's either Blame or Goldikova.