Shirreffs says Zenyatta deserves '10 Horse of the Year

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Personal Ensign was never in that HOY discussion, though in all fairness, Alysheba had a great year ( and much better than anyone this year ).

....i thought she was if she won and sheba didnt fire.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Yeah, must've been just chilling watching PE beat the miler and the 800-year-old G3 gelding in that '88 Whitney…

Are you talking about King's Swan? If so....I am pretty sure he won multiple G2s that year, so I'm not exactly sure how that makes him a "G3 gelding."

Also, as for Gulch he won the Wood Memorial at 9f so it isn't like he couldn't get that distance. But even if you want to classify him as a "miler," is beating a really good miler going 9f that easy? It isn't like we are talking about beating a miler going 10+f.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Danzig

personal ensign faced and defeated males, including eclipse award winner gulch before running in the distaff and defeating the ky derby/santa anita derby winner. she also retired undefeated, a perfect 13 for 13. alysheba got HOY, and deservedly so. i don't recall if PE was even mentioned as being in the running. zenyatta shouldn't be in the running at this point at all, not with what she's done this year. the only thing her connections are hanging their hats on is her 19/19 record. she didn't accomplish all that this year. if blame or QR wins the classic, her trainer can politic all he wishes. she wouldn't deserve to win, or even get in the voting, based on this years races-and isn't that what the award is for?

I agree.

The connections of PE picked a 3 horse field with Gulch being the major competitor (not the best horse in the country) to take their single shot against boys. I don't criticize it because that's the way it has typically been done in the US when mares face older Grade 1 colts. They look for an easy spot here or there or don't do it at all.

Rachel took on the best 3YOs, but when it came time to take on older males she took on Bullsbay and Macho Again (the 4th string). Again, nothing to criticize.

Zenyatta is the only one that is held to the standard of having to run against the best males a lot of the time or get trashed. It's a double standard.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I agree.

The connections of PE picked a 3 horse field with Gulch being the major competitor (not the best horse in the country) to take their single shot against boys. I don't criticize it because that's the way it has typically been done in the US when mares face older Grade 1 colts. They look for an easy spot here or there or don't do it at all.

Rachel took on the best 3YOs, but when it came time to take on older males she took on Bullsbay and Macho Again (the 4th string). Again, nothing to criticize.

Zenyatta is the only one that is held to the standard of having to run against the best males a lot of the time or get trashed. It's a double standard.

How do you pick a 3 horse field ?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The difference is those horses regularly competed against top-class runners on dirt. Zenyatta has compiled her record by mostly beating up on tin cans over a surface that will eventually be a footnote in racing history.

I agree that synthetic surfaces are not the major surface in the US and also agree that other than St Trinians she hasn't faced a single very good horse this year.

However, I think some of the horses she beat in 2008 and 2009 were very good horses whose synthetic form and quality was verified by various cross surface ventures. She crushed them.

At this point I have no problem with someone saying she's not a great dirt horse. She hasn't done enough to demonstrate that even though she's had two races on the surface and beat an Eclispe Award winning mare and previous Ladies Classic winner in one of them. I just don't think that matters. I don't trash Ruffian for never competing on turf or Miesque for never trying dirt. I recognize their special qualities and how they were suited to the surface they ran on. Different attitude. I love them all.

[slotdirt]

I think the point people are missing is that Zenyatta runs on the astroturf of horse racing while every single other horse mentioned in this thread ran their entire careers over a natural racing surface. When pro-ride or tapeta or polytrack go the way of the dodo bird in the next 20 years, we will really have no idea how good Zenyatta would have been good over dirt or grass.

The handicap division now sucks so much more than it did when Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret were running. I think that's a major reason why so many bombs are lobbed her way, because by running against Switch and Rinterval 17 of 19 times she's hit the track, who is she really avoiding? Richard's Kid?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

The connections of PE picked a 3 horse field with Gulch being the major competitor (not the best horse in the country) to take their single shot against boys.

These are the kinds of idiotic comments that I just love.

This comment implies that Personal Ensign's connection spent the year waiting for a major Grade 1 to have only two other entries and then slipped in at the least minute.

By the way, at 1 1/8 miles, Zenyatta wouldn't have had an easy time handling Gulch, and certainly wouldn't have done it on her 2010 form.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

This comment implies that Personal Ensign's connection spent the year waiting for a major Grade 1 to have only two other entries and then slipped in at the least minute.

That's exactly right.

They wanted to test her against males eventually and Gulch was a very good horse, but they also were selective about it. They could have picked a race they knew Alysheba, Ferndinand, Bet Twice, Lost Code etc.. would be in.

They could have gone in the Classic instead of the Distaff.

The difference between me and others is that I don't trash the connections of PE for avoiding the best males and choosing the Distaff when she was fit and ready to go for the Classic. I realize that many of the greatest mares never even tried older Grade 1 horses and others tried and got demolished.

Azeri tried - demolished
Bayakoa tried - demolished
Dance Smartly - successful but only in Canada
Go for Wand - never tried it.
Paseana - demolished
Sky Beauty - never tried it
Inside Information - never tried it
Heavenly Prize - tried once and was well beaten by Cigar & Wekiva Springs
Silver Bullet Lady - demolished in Belmont

[slotdirt]

Sweet Jesus. Has classhandicapper never watched a race ran before 1989 or one that wasn't run in North America?

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't understand what you're getting at, other than the usual bad attempts at trying to be funny, as there were clearly some very good horses this decade.

Ghostzapper? Point Given? Tiznow? Bernardini? Invasor? There are more than a few others.

English Channel? One hell of an American Turf horse.

Is Pedigree Ann trolling?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

English Channel? One hell of an American Turf horse.

Somewhere GPK got his wings.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I agree that synthetic surfaces are not the major surface in the US and also agree that other than St Trinians she hasn't faced a single very good horse this year.

However, I think some of the horses she beat in 2008 and 2009 were very good horses whose synthetic form and quality was verified by various cross surface ventures. She crushed them.

At this point I have no problem with someone saying she's not a great dirt horse. She hasn't done enough to demonstrate that even though she's had two races on the surface and beat an Eclispe Award winning mare and previous Ladies Classic winner in one of them. I just don't think that matters. I don't trash Ruffian for never competing on turf or Miesque for never trying dirt. I recognize their special qualities and how they were suited to the surface they ran on. Different attitude. I love them all.

Switch is a pretty good horse. No beast but pretty good.

[slotdirt]

Four words:

Gallorette
Twilight Tear
Busher

They don't make them like they used to. Could you imagine how far away from Stymie Zenyatta would be running if a horse of that caliber were on the track today?

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That's exactly right.

They wanted to test her against males eventually and Gulch was a very good horse, but they also were selective about it. They could have picked a race they knew Alysheba, Ferndinand, Bet Twice, Lost Code etc.. would be in.

They could have gone in the Classic instead of the Distaff.

The difference between me and others is that I don't trash the connections of PE for avoiding the best males and choosing the Distaff when she was fit and ready to go for the Classic. I realize that many of the greatest mares never even tried older Grade 1 horses and others tried and got demolished.

Azeri tried - demolished
Bayakoa tried - demolished
Dance Smartly - successful but only in Canada
Go for Wand - never tried it.
Paseana - demolished
Sky Beauty - never tried it
Inside Information - never tried it
Heavenly Prize - tried once and was well beaten by Cigar & Wekiva Springs
Silver Bullet Lady - demolished in Belmont

Actually ran a pretty good race considering that field. I know that was nowhere near as good as last years Classic field but running 5th beating the Derby, Preakness, Belmont, Travers etc. winners) in there was pretty impressive for a horse with nothing to prove.

[JerseyJ]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That's exactly right.

They wanted to test her against males eventually and Gulch was a very good horse, but they also were selective about it. They could have picked a race they knew Alysheba, Ferndinand, Bet Twice, Lost Code etc.. would be in.

They could have gone in the Classic instead of the Distaff.

The difference between me and others is that I don't trash the connections of PE for avoiding the best males and choosing the Distaff when she was fit and ready to go for the Classic. I realize that many of the greatest mares never even tried older Grade 1 horses and others tried and got demolished.

Azeri tried - demolished
Bayakoa tried - demolished
Dance Smartly - successful but only in Canada
Go for Wand - never tried it.
Paseana - demolished
Sky Beauty - never tried it
Inside Information - never tried it
Heavenly Prize - tried once and was well beaten by Cigar & Wekiva Springs
Silver Bullet Lady - demolished in Belmont

There was no reason for the connections of Personal Ensign to choose the Classic, seeing the field that lined up in the starting gate for the 1988 Distaff, each of whom would have been tough for Zenyatta to run down. Winning Colors, Goodbye Halo, Sham Say, Classic Crown, Hail a Cab, Epitome, Willa on the Move, and Integra made up what could be considered the deepest field in the history of the Breeders Cup distaff so there was no real reason to run that year.

You say that Azeri got demolished in her run in 2004. She also faced Ghostzapper who was arguably the best horse we have seen in recent memory. Also faced Dubai World Cup winner Roses in May, BC Classic defending Champion Pleasantly Perfect, and she ran a pretty good race, mind you as a 6 year old. I would put money that Zenyatta wouldn't have finished any closer that year than Azeri did.

You act like Zenyatta did something amazing winning the Breeders Cup Classic over her favorite surface while getting a favorable setup over one of the weakest fields in recent memory in the race. Last year's classic featured decent turf/synthetic specialists such as Gio Ponti, Twice Over, Richard's Kid, Rip Van Winkle and such, and mediocre dirt runners or mediocre 3YOs like Colonel John, Awesome Gem, Mine that Bird, and Regal Ransom. The best dirt runner in the race at a clear disadvantage due to surface was Summer Bird, and the next best was probably Einstein, who as we all know was a neat horse, but hardly a standard for greatness. So that certainly wasn't in my estimation a strong field last year.

But should we expect anything different from someone who believes that Hystericalady was just as good on synthetics as she was on dirt...

[slotdirt]

Kind of tough to hold the whole "not facing boys" thing against Go for Wand when she freaking died on the track in November of her 3YO season.

[slotdirt]

Also, why did classhandicapper conveniently leave, say, Lady's Secret and Rachel Alexandra out of his argument, nevermind Goldikova, Zarkava, or Ouija Board? Was it because it would poke a slew o' holes in his/her argument?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

There was no reason for the connections of Personal Ensign to choose the Classic, seeing the field that lined up in the starting gate for the 1988 Distaff, each of whom would have been tough for Zenyatta to run down.

It's also worth mentioning her connections had two runners in the Classic, including the runnerup.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's also worth mentioning her connections had two runners in the Classic, including the runnerup.

You, shutup you!