Shirreffs says Zenyatta deserves '10 Horse of the Year

[alysheba4]

who cares.

[Dahoss]

What bothers me the most about Team Zenyatta is they think everyone has the horse racing acumen of Smooth Operator.

This is the team that was responsible for the travelling over the rockies comment earlier. Then Rail Trip was the highest mountain. Now regardless of her finish, in the race they coddled her for all year, she deserves HOY? Amazing.

HOY isn't some kind of lifetime achievement award. That's what the Hall of Fame is for and she'll be in there in due time. HOY is for the horse who has accomplished the most over the course of the year on the track. IMO a case could be made that even with a win in the Classic she doesn't deserve the award this year.

Anyone who doesn't think Team Zenyatta doesn't care about HOY is fooling themselves. They desperately want it, to fuel their own ego.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What bothers me the most about Team Zenyatta is they think everyone has the horse racing acumen of Smooth Operator.

This is the team that was responsible for the travelling over the rockies comment earlier. Then Rail Trip was the highest mountain. Now regardless of her finish, in the race they coddled her for all year, she deserves HOY? Amazing.

HOY isn't some kind of lifetime achievement award. That's what the Hall of Fame is for and she'll be in there in due time. HOY is for the horse who has accomplished the most over the course of the year on the track. IMO a case could be made that even with a win in the Classic she doesn't deserve the award this year.

Anyone who doesn't think Team Zenyatta doesn't care about HOY is fooling themselves. They desperately want it, to fuel their own ego.

I agree with most of your points, but.... For a while Rail Trip was the highest mountain out there, sure the connections are lame and should have won the Pacific Classic, but whatever... A lot of people really liked Rail Trip, and thought he would move way up on dirt, BTW being one of them.....What Rail Trip has done since, should not take away from his form when they did duck him. Win the Classic and still not be HOY, that is totally absurd. The group is deep, all the major players will be there.... If she runs 2-3 and anyone but QR, Blame, L@L win it, she still might be HOY.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I agree with most of your points, but.... For a while Rail Trip was the highest mountain out there, sure the connections are lame and should have won the Pacific Classic, but whatever... A lot of people really liked Rail Trip, and thought he would move way up on dirt, BTW being one of them.....What Rail Trip has done since, should not take away from his form when they did duck him. Win the Classic and still not be HOY, that is totally absurd. The group is deep, all the major players will be there.... If she runs 2-3 and anyone but QR, Blame, L@L win it, she still might be HOY.

They were ducking Rail Trip. I don't care how good he looked, it's Rail Trip. It was ridiculous then and even more so now. But that is what they do. What was so special about his form before that makes it logical to duck him? Because he could run a little?

Sorry, I don't believe in rewarding ducking and making 1 real start per year. You do and I find that absurd.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

They were ducking Rail Trip. I don't care how good he looked, it's Rail Trip. It was ridiculous then and even more so now. But that is what they do. What was so special about his form before that makes it logical to duck him? Because he could run a little?

Sorry, I don't believe in rewarding ducking and making 1 real start per year. You do and I find that absurd.

I dont think HOY is about who you duck and race. If she wins she is still undefeated and will have defeated the best group of the year. She also showed up at Oaklawn.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I dont think HOY is about who you duck and race. If she wins she is still undefeated and will have defeated the best group of the year. She also showed up at Oaklawn.

Oh she showed up at Oaklawn? Give her the award....forget the BC. Just give it to her now.

[iamthelurker]

OH EM GEEEE ZENYATTA'S BLEEDING!!!!!

oh wait i know nothing about this game......come on people turn off the secretariat movie.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Oh she showed up at Oaklawn? Give her the award....forget the BC. Just give it to her now.

Where did I say that? I was very specific about how I think she wins the award. If QR, Blame or Lucky win the Classic, she wont be HOY.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What bothers me the most about Team Zenyatta is they think everyone has the horse racing acumen of Smooth Operator.

But....if they spend a lot of time watching TVG that could be a relatively easy assumption to make.

[Thunder Gulch]

Anyone outside of the nutty Zenyatta fans- and there are a lot of them- has enough common sense to know she can't lose to Blame, QR, or even Lucky and still win HOY. If an outsider wins, she has a good shot even though it's pretty clear that she hasn't had the best campaign (2010) to this point. If she wins it's hers. Hopefully it won't set the precedent for how to win the award in the future by ducking competition until the end, but there would be no way to deny her if it's won on this track.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Hopefully it won't set the precedent for how to win the award in the future by ducking competition until the end, but there would be no way to deny her if it's won on this track.

I think this is where we sometimes can get into a bit of a double standard.

I 100% agree that her 2010 campaign has been weak for a HOTY candidate because typically HOTY goes to a horse that competed in either the Triple Crown races and/or a series of Grade 1 races open to older males. It's rare that a mare is even in the conversation.

Right or wrong, she's part of the conversation partly because of her overall record and partly because of her win in the Classic last year.

The thing is, no one required mares like Personal Ensign, Bayakoa, Go for Wand, etc... to compete in Grade 1 races open to males all year long before getting any respect and none of those all time greats even considered running in the Classic. So they more or less took themselves out of consideration for HOTY unless all the males sucked. Zenyatta is taking a shot.

I think the Classic is one part of the overall picture and should probably be weighed the strongest because other than the Derby (restricted to 3YOs) it's the only race where all the best horses around the world get together. So it's typically by far the highest quality race of the year.

How you weigh it vs. other accomplishments is open to debate, but I don't think a mare should be punished for doing as much or more than some of the other great mares before her. They all primarily run against their own sex and take a selective shot here or there against top males and it's usually a weak field. Some don't even go that far. Only Azeri tried the Classic. I don't think the standard should be that any mare that wants consideration should have to compete against Grade 1 males all year long. It's not going to happen when there are easier pickings and lower demands on the horses staying with their own sex most of the season.

The few exceptions are 3YO fillies that compete in Triple Crown preps and the actual Triple Crown races against other 3YOs. The reason that happens more often is that fillies tend to develop sooner than colts and are often competitive with 3YO colts UNTIL later in the season when the colts develop further and move past them.

[the_fat_man]

Say what you want about Smooth Operator, however, keep in mind that:

1) he wasn't gaga over RA --- how'd her season turn out? RA the RD (Roberto Duran) of the TBRED set. No mas, baby.

2) nor was he ever on the QR bandwagon --- notice how his many supporters are no longer beating their chest about how he'll have no trouble going 10F. In fact, they're now pushing the OPPOSITE. Now, that's prescience.


I know one thing: If I were pushing 1 and 2, and heavily, on these forums, I'd STFU for the rest of the year and not worry about Z or what her connections or her supporters were doing.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Say what you want about Smooth Operator, however, keep in mind that:

1) he wasn't gaga over RA --- how'd her season turn out? RA the RD (Roberto Duran) of the TBRED set. No mas, baby.

2) nor was he ever on the QR bandwagon --- notice how his many supporters are no longer beating their chest about how he'll have no trouble going 10F. In fact, they're now pushing the OPPOSITE. Now, that's prescience.


I know one thing: If I were pushing 1 and 2, and heavily, on these forums, I'd STFU for the rest of the year and not worry about Z or what her connections or her supporters were doing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I think this is where we sometimes can get into a bit of a double standard.

I 100% agree that her 2010 campaign has been weak for a HOTY candidate because typically HOTY goes to a horse that competed in either the Triple Crown races and/or a series of Grade 1 races open to older males. It's rare that a mare is even in the conversation.

Right or wrong, she's part of the conversation partly because of her overall record and partly because of her win in the Classic last year.

The thing is, no one required mares like Personal Ensign, Bayakoa, Go for Wand, etc... to compete in Grade 1 races open to males all year long before getting any respect and none of those all time greats even considered running in the Classic. So they more or less took themselves out of consideration for HOTY unless all the males sucked. Zenyatta is taking a shot.

I think the Classic is one part of the overall picture and should probably be weighed the strongest because other than the Derby (restricted to 3YOs) it's the only race where all the best horses around the world get together. So it's typically by far the highest quality race of the year.

How you weigh it vs. other accomplishments is open to debate, but I don't think a mare should be punished for doing as much or more than some of the other great mares before her. They all primarily run against their own sex and take a selective shot here or there against top males and it's usually a weak field. Some don't even go that far. Only Azeri tried the Classic. I don't think the standard should be that any mare that wants consideration should have to compete against Grade 1 males all year long. It's not going to happen when there are easier pickings and lower demands on the horses staying with their own sex most of the season.

The few exceptions are 3YO fillies that compete in Triple Crown preps and the actual Triple Crown races against other 3YOs. The reason that happens more often is that fillies tend to develop sooner than colts and are often competitive with 3YO colts UNTIL later in the season when the colts develop further and move past them.

personal ensign faced and defeated males, including eclipse award winner gulch before running in the distaff and defeating the ky derby/santa anita derby winner. she also retired undefeated, a perfect 13 for 13. alysheba got HOY, and deservedly so. i don't recall if PE was even mentioned as being in the running. zenyatta shouldn't be in the running at this point at all, not with what she's done this year. the only thing her connections are hanging their hats on is her 19/19 record. she didn't accomplish all that this year. if blame or QR wins the classic, her trainer can politic all he wishes. she wouldn't deserve to win, or even get in the voting, based on this years races-and isn't that what the award is for?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Danzig

personal ensign faced and defeated males, including eclipse award winner gulch before running in the distaff and defeating the ky derby/santa anita derby winner. she also retired undefeated, a perfect 13 for 13. alysheba got HOY, and deservedly so. i don't recall if PE was even mentioned as being in the running. zenyatta shouldn't be in the running at this point at all, not with what she's done this year. the only thing her connections are hanging their hats on is her 19/19 record. she didn't accomplish all that this year. if blame or QR wins the classic, her trainer can politic all he wishes. she wouldn't deserve to win, or even get in the voting, based on this years races-and isn't that what the award is for?

Personal Ensign was never in that HOY discussion, though in all fairness, Alysheba had a great year ( and much better than anyone this year ).

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Danzig

personal ensign faced and defeated males, including eclipse award winner gulch before running in the distaff and defeating the ky derby/santa anita derby winner. she also retired undefeated, a perfect 13 for 13. alysheba got HOY, and deservedly so. i don't recall if PE was even mentioned as being in the running. zenyatta shouldn't be in the running at this point at all, not with what she's done this year. the only thing her connections are hanging their hats on is her 19/19 record. she didn't accomplish all that this year. if blame or QR wins the classic, her trainer can politic all he wishes. she wouldn't deserve to win, or even get in the voting, based on this years races-and isn't that what the award is for?

I agree.

The connections of PE picked a 3 horse field with Gulch being the major competitor (not the best horse in the country) to take their single shot against boys. I don't criticize it because that's the way it has typically been done in the US when mares face older Grade 1 colts. They look for an easy spot here or there or don't do it at all.

Rachel took on the best 3YOs, but when it came time to take on older males she took on Bullsbay and Macho Again (the 4th string). Again, nothing to criticize.

Zenyatta is the only one that is held to the standard of having to run against the best males a lot of the time or get trashed. It's a double standard.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

The thing is, no one required mares like Personal Ensign, Bayakoa, Go for Wand, etc... to compete in Grade 1 races open to males all year long before getting any respect and none of those all time greats even considered running in the Classic.

The difference is those horses regularly competed against top-class runners on dirt. Zenyatta has compiled her record by mostly beating up on tin cans over a surface that will eventually be a footnote in racing history.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The difference is those horses regularly competed against top-class runners on dirt. Zenyatta has compiled her record by mostly beating up on tin cans over a surface that will eventually be a footnote in racing history.

Notto mention the top class older males of that era were far superior to what passes for a handicap division now. If Alysheba were running today, Zenyatta would be on a farm in KY getting fat because there is zero chance that they would have tried horses of that class.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The difference is those horses regularly competed against top-class runners on dirt. Zenyatta has compiled her record by mostly beating up on tin cans over a surface that will eventually be a footnote in racing history.

I agree that synthetic surfaces are not the major surface in the US and also agree that other than St Trinians she hasn't faced a single very good horse this year.

However, I think some of the horses she beat in 2008 and 2009 were very good horses whose synthetic form and quality was verified by various cross surface ventures. She crushed them.

At this point I have no problem with someone saying she's not a great dirt horse. She hasn't done enough to demonstrate that even though she's had two races on the surface and beat an Eclispe Award winning mare and previous Ladies Classic winner in one of them. I just don't think that matters. I don't trash Ruffian for never competing on turf or Miesque for never trying dirt. I recognize their special qualities and how they were suited to the surface they ran on. Different attitude. I love them all.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by miraja2

But....if they spend a lot of time watching TVG that could be a relatively easy assumption to make.

or just tune into this place on a daily basis