Shirreffs' latest gem

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You can't say the record is a fraud.

Yes, you definitely can. Again with the "Grade I" nonsense. How many legitimate Grade I horses has she beaten in her Grade I's this year? Stop being ridiculous.

[slotdirt]

I'd have to imagine at some point we'll see something like G1S (similar to G1T) in the stakes schedules to annotate that a particular race is run on a third, decidedly not dirt or turf surface.

In any event, the ludicrousness of this fear of traveling mentioned several times now by Shireffs is particularly magnified when one looks at the PP's of some of Shireffs' other "stars" in the synthetic track era.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Yes, you definitely can. Again with the "Grade I" nonsense. How many legitimate Grade I horses has she beaten in her Grade I's this year? Stop being ridiculous.

I agree that many of her grade 1s have been very weak fields. But on a horse's resume, a grade I is a grade I. I'd be thrilled to buy a mare and win a bad grade I. A mare's value goes through the roof when they win a grade I.

It's not as if there are great mares out there sitting on the sidelines. Every owner wants to win a grade I because it makes the value of their horse go up by 5x. If there were any mares whose connections thought they could beat Z in these grade 1s, they'd be there.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Just to repeat what I said in an edited post earlier, I understand where you are all coming from. The grade 1s against fillies on the west coast are not very challening races for Z. As others have said, these races are almost like exhibitions. It is somewhat boring to watch Z beat up on medicore fillies. I agree with that. I see where you're all coming from. I understand why you would be frustrated. I don't blame you. But by the same token, I understand why the connections are doing what they are doing and I can't really fault them at this point. If they would have refused to face RA in the AB earlier in the year, then I would have faulted them. But they were actually eager to face RA. At this point, it's different. They are very close to their goal and they don't want to do anything to screw it up. I can't blame them . I see where they're coming from. I also see where you are all coming from and I understand your frustration.

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Just to repeat what I said in an edited post earlier, I understand where you are all coming from. The grade 1s against fillies on the west coast are not very challening races for Z. As others have said, these races are almost like exhibitions. It is somewhat boring to watch Z beat up on medicore fillies. I agree with that. I see where you're all coming from. I understand why you would be frustrated. I don't blame you. But by the same token, I understand why the connections are doing what they are doing and I can't really fault them at this point. If they would have refused to face RA in the AB earlier in the year, then I would have faulted them. But they were actually eager to face RA. At this point, it's different. They are very close to their goal and they don't want to do anything to screw it up. I can't blame them . I see where they're coming from. I also see where you are all coming from and I understand your frustration.

Here's another fallacy you Zen folks can't seem to get through your heads. It isn't about facing Rachel Alexandra. Get that. It's about PROVING you are a great horse by beating the best competition in the best races. The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different. They are more interested in protecting a record than running against the best horses. The filly crop of older horses is pathetic, but at least they could try to beat Misremembered in the Big Cap. That shouldn't be a problem if she is all you think she is.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Here's another fallacy you Zen folks can't seem to get through your heads. It isn't about facing Rachel Alexandra. Get that. It's about PROVING you are a great horse by beating the best competition in the best races. The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different. They are more interested in protecting a record than running against the best horses. The filly crop of older horses is pathetic, but at least they could try to beat Misremembered in the Big Cap. That shouldn't be a problem if she is all you think she is.

BUT HOW MANY TIMES DID PERSONAL ENSIGN BEAT MALES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! SHE'LL DIE IF SHE FACES MALES THAT OFTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Just because your boner from being at Santa Anita and 'hearing the crowd roar' still hasn't gone down, doesn't mean we can't be dissatisfied with her campaign. If she beats Rachel and wins the BCC, it'll make me sad, not 'comedy'. Not sad because she proved me wrong or some other nonsense. Sad because we had a truly great horse whose talent was completely wasted for four years running on a joke surface against almost nothing but crows.

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Here's another fallacy you Zen folks can't seem to get through your heads. It isn't about facing Rachel Alexandra. Get that. It's about PROVING you are a great horse by beating the best competition in the best races. The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different. They are more interested in protecting a record than running against the best horses. The filly crop of older horses is pathetic, but at least they could try to beat Misremembered in the Big Cap. That shouldn't be a problem if she is all you think she is.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Here's another fallacy you Zen folks can't seem to get through your heads. It isn't about facing Rachel Alexandra. Get that. It's about PROVING you are a great horse by beating the best competition in the best races. The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different. They are more interested in protecting a record than running against the best horses. The filly crop of older horses is pathetic, but at least they could try to beat Misremembered in the Big Cap. That shouldn't be a problem if she is all you think she is.

You say, "The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different."

That is untrue. Most of the great mares usually run against mares. Some of them run against the boys sometimes, but that's not really expected and that's not really the norm. If you look at the records of most great mares, the majority of them usually ran against mares. It may be a little different in Europe, but not over here.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You say, "The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different."

That is untrue. Most of the great mares usually run against mares. Some of them run against the boys sometimes, but that's not really expected and that's not really the norm. If you look at the records of most great mares, the majority of them usually ran against mares. It may be a little different in Europe, but not over here.

I knew it.

Find me a great mare who ran against the level of dreck mares that Zenyatta is running against, and you might have an actual point. Otherwise it's apples and oranges and yet another excuse for her.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You say, "The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different."

That is untrue. Most of the great mares usually run against mares. Some of them run against the boys sometimes, but that's not really expected and that's not really the norm. If you look at the records of most great mares, the majority of them usually ran against mares. It may be a little different in Europe, but not over here.

Doesn't Zenyatta's reputation transcend her gender?

There was a big blow up when she was compared to Lava Man a few months ago.

Doesn't the vast majority here think she is more than capable of shouldering the principle components of his '96-'98 campaigns (ie Big Cap, Hollywood Gold Cup, Pacific Classic) and come out the other end at least as successful as he was?

If you still want to play the gender card, didn't most of the top mare's of the modern era travel to a much greater extent than Zenyatta? Let's ignore Personal Ensign, who's "light" campaigning (in fact she was raced in intense fashion playing "catch up" as a 3yo) was the result of a major injury as opposed to a conscientious trainer.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Doesn't Zenyatta's reputation transcend her gender?

There was a big blow up when she was compared to Lava Man a few months ago.

Doesn't the vast majority here think she is more than capable of shouldering the principle components of his '96-'98 campaigns (ie Big Cap, Hollywood Gold Cup, Pacific Classic) and come out the other end at least as successful as he was?

If you still want to play the gender card, didn't most of the top mare's of the modern era travel to a much greater extent than Zenyatta? Let's ignore Personal Ensign, who's "light" campaigning (in fact she was raced in intense fashion playing "catch up" as a 3yo) was the result of a major injury as opposed to a conscientious trainer.

Lava Man ran that long ago??? Man I feel old

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I agree that many of her grade 1s have been very weak fields. But on a horse's resume, a grade I is a grade I. I'd be thrilled to buy a mare and win a bad grade I. A mare's value goes through the roof when they win a grade I.

It's not as if there are great mares out there sitting on the sidelines. Every owner wants to win a grade I because it makes the value of their horse go up by 5x. If there were any mares whose connections thought they could beat Z in these grade 1s, they'd be there.

Really? So now the discussion is about broodmare value? Nice deflection. We're talking about level of competition, and it has been piss poor. Period. Enough with the excuses.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Really? So now the discussion is about broodmare value? Nice deflection. We're talking about level of competition, and it has been piss poor. Period. Enough with the excuses.

The point about broodmare value is that as long as grade 1s are so important for broodmare value, you're never going to get really easy grade 1s.

You have to remember that one of the reasons these races out west have been so easy is because Z is scaring the competition away. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more shippers from the east coast coming out west to win a grade I. Top mares from the east coast don't want to fly out west to face Z. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more of these top mares coming out west for a grade I. It's not Z's fault that she's scaring the competition away. That is the point you are missing.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The point about broodmare value is that as long as grade 1s are so important for broodmare value, you're never going to get really easy grade 1s.

You have to remember that one of the reasons these races out west have been so easy is because Z is scaring the competition away. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more shippers from the east coast coming out west to win a grade I. Top mares from the east coast don't want to fly out west to face Z. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more of these top mares coming out west for a grade I. It's not Z's fault that she's scaring the competition away. That is the point you are missing.

Did they fill up those collectible Zenyatta glasses with free kool-aid?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Did they fill up those collectible Zenyatta glasses with free kool-aid?

What I'm saying isn't even debatable. I'm not saying anything controversial. You must not be in the horse business. The main goal of anyone that owns a mare is to win a grade I. That's how you increase your mare's value dramatically. Everyone wants their mare to win a grade I. The value of your mare goes up 5x overnight.

Anyone with a good mare is looking to win a grade I. If you're back east and you're looking to get a grade I win, you will strongly consider shipping out west. It's been done a lot over the years. It's even done with colts to increase their value. It's probably not done quite as much now with the synthetics but it's still done.

Anyway, if a trainer is deciding whether or not to send his mare out west to try to win a grade I, you don't think Zenyatta's presence in the race will have a huge impact on the guy's decision. If you don't, then you are the one drinking the cool-aid.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What I'm saying isn't even debatable.

Of course it is, because you're making no logical points. It's like making fun of Sarah Palin. At some point, you're just being mean for picking on a weaker kid.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not saying anything controversial.

Yeah you are, cuz people are arguing with you. Did you not notice that part?

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You must not be in the horse business. The main goal of anyone that owns a mare is to win a grade I. That's how you increase your mare's value dramatically. Everyone wants their mare to win a grade I. The value of your mare goes up 5x overnight.

Her value has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion:

1) They won't sell her. I bet they won't sell her offspring unless it's sending a colt to stud, and exactly how will anything she does in 2010 affect that? I don't think getting HOY would impact progeny value at this point. She's transcended it. She and Rachel are Hall of Fame bound and both sets of owners are probably gonna apply for the beatification process rather than sell their respective queens. End of.

2) What does being in the business or not being in the business have to do with logic? Jess Jackson's "in the horse business" and I have yet to understand very much of what he says or does. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or a rocket scientist who moonlights "in the horse business" since I know how particular you are) to figure out that a mare is better off with a G1 than a G2 win. The only reason Zenyatta isn't in a bunch of walkovers is those owners like getting G1 placings. (Well not the only reason. She's teasing them with the close finishes to mediocre horses so some come back for more hoping she'll slip up one day, and if she doesn't, here ya go. Another G1 placing).

3) She's got a million G1s and the Breeders Cup Classic to boot. There's zero that racing her in the Vanity, the Clement Hirsch, the Zenyatta Stakes this year will do to her value. Another Classic win would matter for her legend. Possibly her value, but again, they're not gonna sell her majesty.

4) Why are you referencing what other people aspire to with their mares? That has nothing to do with the Mosses' decisions. They know they have a superhorse that has as many G1s as a 14yo boy has zits. Racking up more isn't the point so much as that's the level she belongs at. She's so clearly dominant at filly or mare G1s at CA that there's no reason not to go in them if only to pick up the bigger purses with ease.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Anyone with a good mare is looking to win a grade I. If you're back east and you're looking to get a grade I win, you will strongly consider shipping out west. It's been done a lot over the years. It's even done with colts to increase their value. It's probably not done quite as much now with the synthetics but it's still done.

Way to deflect the argument again. Why a mare owner runs their horse in a G1 is obvious. Why they'd go west is not. They have a G1 over a dirt surface at their home track and they go to CA why? Zenyatta's supposedly better on dirt, and synthetics seems to take the edge off dirt horses with speed. Why not go to a track that benefits both Zenyatta and her competition? Why does either have to compete with one hoof tied behind their back?

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Anyway, if a trainer is deciding whether or not to send his mare out west to try to win a grade I, you don't think Zenyatta's presence in the race will have a huge impact on the guy's decision. If you don't, then you are the one drinking the cool-aid.

I seriously doubt it heavily affected the decisions of many of the dirt horses in the East or "east" since that apparently applies to Churchill and Oaklawn nowadays. The bigger factor--the surface. They learned their lesson. Horses that do go west are either taking a shot in the dark or they've shown they like synthetics too. The big question for the ones that don't ship is why bother?

There's no competition staying in California unless she tries open company. I get why they're doing it, but it's frustrating. The idea that not coming to her makes the rest of the horses outside California a bunch of chickens is nuts. No, a G1 isn't the be all end all when it's on synthetics and requires a cross-country flight.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The point about broodmare value is that as long as grade 1s are so important for broodmare value, you're never going to get really easy grade 1s.

You have to remember that one of the reasons these races out west have been so easy is because Z is scaring the competition away. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more shippers from the east coast coming out west to win a grade I. Top mares from the east coast don't want to fly out west to face Z. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more of thse top mares coming out west for a grade I. It's not Z's fault that she's scaring the competition away.

You're contradicting yourself. "As long as Grade 1's are important for broodmare value, there aren't easy Grade 1's. The reason these Grade 1's are so easy.."

Your point is, essentially, there are no California synthetic mares who can beat Zenyatta. Truly groundbreaking stuff. The "no east coast shippers want to take on Zenyatta" thing holds no water, because the playing field is not even close to level for dirt horses on the crap Zenyatta runs on. If Zenyatta weren't in these races, you may get two or three east coast dirt horses a year spinning the roulette wheel on synthetic, but the difference would be negligible. It's mainly the surface and its neutralization of dirt horses.

And please, I'm begging you, stop starting sentences with "It's not Zenyatta's fault.." It's completely meaningless. Who's blaming the actual horse? The connections are chickenshit. You have no counterargument.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

You're contradicting yourself. "As long as Grade 1's are important for broodmare value, there aren't easy Grade 1's. The reason these Grade 1's are so easy.."

Your point is, essentially, there are no California synthetic mares who can beat Zenyatta. Truly groundbreaking stuff. The "no east coast shippers want to take on Zenyatta" thing holds no water, because the playing field is not even close to level for dirt horses on the crap Zenyatta runs on. If Zenyatta weren't in these races, you may get two or three east coast dirt horses a year spinning the roulette wheel on synthetic, but the difference would be negligible. It's mainly the surface and its neutralization of dirt horses.

And please, I'm begging you, stop starting sentences with "It's not Zenyatta's fault.." It's completely meaningless. Who's blaming the actual horse? The connections are chickenshit. You have no counterargument.

I agree with you that having synthetic tracks out west definitely prevents some east coast horses from coming out for these grade 1s. Some trainers may not feel that their horse will handle a synthetic track, and rightfully so in many cases.

So I agree that the synthetic track does stop some horses from shipping out west for a grade I. But that is not the only reason. Not wanting to face Z is a big part of it too. If Z isn't in there, you're going to have more guys rolling the dice and shipping out west to take a chance to win a grade I and increase their mare's value dramatically.

When I say "it's not Z's fault", I mean it's not her connections fault that people don't want to face her.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

When I say "it's not Z's fault", I mean it's not her connections fault that people don't want to face her.

Correct, but she should be well past the point in her career where they let other horses come to her. She's proven every single thing she can possibly prove against SoCal mares on synthetic.