Zenyatta: Slayer of Scoundrels

[Port Conway Lane]

It seems so easy to handpick horses that have finished behind ANY great horse and then point out how the handpicked horse would be the "worst" winner of that given race.
Not to mention that "worst" is a matter of conjecture.

[dagolfer33]

I think its easy to discredit the beaten ones, and the ones they have beaten. But it is even easier to analyze the ones that have beaten her, BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by dagolfer33

I think its easy to discredit the beaten ones, and the ones they have beaten. But it is even easier to analyze the ones that have beaten her, BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE.

This is the same kind of bullcrap that led to Favorite Trick winning the Horse of the Year title over Skip Away.

The 2yo's sucked beyond belief that year .. the older males were amazingly talented and spectacularly deep in numbers.

It's also the same kind of nonsense that led to Sports Illustrated ranking Pepper's Pride among the 20 best horses of last decade male or female.

I prefer to judge a horse by the quality of their performance and the quality of oppositon they beat.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by dagolfer33

I think its easy to discredit the beaten ones, and the ones they have beaten. But it is even easier to analyze the ones that have beaten her, BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE.

It beats the logic for the naysayers to exclaim she is the all time luckiest horse in history. Every horse she has beaten has been a pure stroke of good fortune, a stroke of luck, the stars are aligned argument. That's all that is left in this argument, a grasping of the straws mentality.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

It beats the logic for the naysayers to exclaim she is the all time luckiest horse in history.

She's not lucky.

She's just been very carefully managed and other than about three times in her career - she's faced pure crap.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

She's not lucky.

She's just been very carefully managed and other than about three times in her career - she's faced pure crap.

I think we can agree, the pure crap competition argument is one used to obfuscate the true quality of Zenyatta because what else is there to pick on? The beyers since she never lost? To use a quote from a beyer guy that at times you don't need to overanalyse every part of a horse's resume to know the horse deserves all of her accolades.
Steve Crist mentioned in his blog "Zenyatta, is a transcendently great horse who handles everything and is probably as good or better on dirt than on synthetics.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think we can agree, the pure crap competition argument is one used to obfuscate the true quality of Zenyatta because what else is there to pick on? The beyers since she never lost? To use a quote from a beyer guy that at times you don't need to overanalyse every part of a horse's resume to know the horse deserves all of her accolades.
Steve Crist mentioned in his blog "Zenyatta, is a transcendently great horse who handles everything and is probably as good or better on dirt than on synthetics.

So if the Washington Nationals go 162-0 on a tour of facing America's high school teams on their own diamonds, the "they beat pure crap" argument would just be a diversion from how truly great the Nationals were and those arguments would be nothing but ways to obfuscate the true quality of that baseball team?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

So if the Washington Nationals go 162-0 on a tour of facing America's high school teams on their own diamonds, the "they beat pure crap" argument would just be a diversion from how truly great the Nationals were and those arguments would be nothing but ways to obfuscate the true quality of that baseball team?

That's a horrible example, short of Zenyatta winning with one leg tied behind her back while conceding 30 lbs to the field because we know 16lbs is certainly not enough to impress, I don't ever think there is anything she can do to impress the naysayers.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

Steve Crist mentioned in his blog "Zenyatta, is a transcendently great horse who handles everything and is probably as good or better on dirt than on synthetics.

"Transcendently great horse who handles everything" is kind of hard to stomach when it's coming from someone who rates Commentator the 2nd best horse of the last decade to not win a championship.

Commentator was 3-for-12 lifetime in Graded Stakes and not one for handling anything when he got a lot of pressure. He is a horse most likely to be appreciated by New Yorkers and the coldest of speed figure lovers.

Steve Crist is a great writer and obviously someone who knows horse racing extremely well.

He almost never is provocative though.

You know how some places have a thumbs-up and thumbs-down feature after you read a column. Crist's work always comes off as though he's shooting for all thumbs up from everyone.

I much prefer someone who is shooting for a thumbs down rating from every stupid person who disagrees with what they've just read...instead of someone who comes off like an impressive politican trying to pile up votes.

Sadly .. very few racing writers have that style .. and the ones who do often have brutally bad opinions or takes. Beyer is obviously the big exception.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

It seems so easy to handpick horses that have finished behind ANY great horse and then point out how the handpicked horse would be the "worst" winner of that given race.
Not to mention that "worst" is a matter of conjecture.

Ah no - the last five females to run 2nd to her are disgraceful slugs.

Name me one Apple Blossom winner in the last 20 years who's no better than Taptam. You can't.

Name me one Santa Margarita winner in the last 20 years who's no better than Dance to my Tune. You can't.

Name me one Lady's Secret winner you've seen who's no better than Lethal Heat. You can't.

Name me one Clement Hirsch winner you've seen who's no better than Anabaa's Creation. You can't.

Name me one Vanity Handicap winner you've see who's no better than Briecat. You can't.

Even if you ignore all the elements of competent handicapping you still can't rationally argue that even the winners of the worst editions of those races aren't better.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Ah no - the last five females to run 2nd to her are disgraceful slugs.

Name me one Apple Blossom winner in the last 20 years who's no better than Taptam. You can't.

Name me one Santa Margarita winner in the last 20 years who's no better than Dance to my Tune. You can't.

Name me one Lady's Secret winner you've seen who's no better than Lethal Heat. You can't.

Name me one Clement Hirsch winner you've seen who's no better than Anabaa's Creation. You can't.

Name me one Vanity Handicap winner you've see who's no better than Briecat. You can't.

Even if you ignore all the elements of competent handicapping you still can't rationally argue that even the winners of the worst editions of those races aren't better.

Ok I'll give you that.
My point is that there are the Twice A Prince's finishing second behind many great horses. How would the horse that finished behind Ghostzapper in the Met Mile have rated among the last 20 winners? Or Macho Again last year behind Rachel? Maybe they weren't the worst, I'm not sure. Even if they were what does that say about Ghostzapper or Rachel ?
Seems like a backward way of rating the quality of the winning horse, especially when the other runners in the fields are ignored in the equation.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

How would the horse that finished behind Ghostzapper in the Met Mile have rated among the last 20 winners?

that would be Silver Wagon. He was beaten 1.25 lengths and 2.25 lengths in Grade 1 stakes in his two starts after Ghostzapper crushed him. He also later won the Grade 1 Carter with a 110 Beyer and Grade 2 General Geroge with a 109 Beyer back-to-back. He was no bum. Saint Liam was a HOY. Roses in May and Pleasently Perfect were both stars. Ghostzapper beat real horses - but he's most loved for the way he won races more than anything else.

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Or Macho Again last year behind Rachel? Maybe they weren't the worst, I'm not sure. Even if they were what does that say about Ghostzapper or Rachel ?
Seems like a backward way of rating the quality of the winning horse, especially when the other runners in the fields are ignored in the equation.

Summer Bird was a distant 2nd to RA in the Haskell.

Macho Again and Bullsbay and Mine That Bird and Musket Man aren't impressive at all relative to other 1-2 finishers of the Preakness and Woodward .. but keep in mind you're talking about a 3-year-old filly who beat them .. and in both cases beat setup closers who were aided by strong paces that should have hindered her.

[10 pnt move up]

Hard to believe Doug feels that the same quality of horses would be entering most of these races had Zenyatta not been in the field, so as he declares the 2nd place horse the would have been "worst winner of the race ever" its deceiving at best, but Doug knows this.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Hard to believe Doug feels that the same quality of horses would be entering most of these races had Zenyatta not been in the field, so as he declares the 2nd place horse the would have been "worst winner of the race ever" its deceiving at best, but Doug knows this.

Obviously the races would have been far more likely to attract respectable horses without Zenyatta running.

However ... the horses she has been beating have been mind bogglingly bad even with that considered.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Obviously the races would have been far more likely to attract respectable horses without Zenyatta running.

However ... the horses she has been beating have been mind bogglingly bad even with that considered.

I know, it does not make for compelling racing...there are way to many races around the country but usually the Apple Blossom is kind of the king of the female spring races. Even when a horse like Azeri ran, and Azeri could give Zenyatta everything she would want, there were good horses that showed up. Yesterday...not so much.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

that would be Silver Wagon. He was beaten 1.25 lengths and 2.25 lengths in Grade 1 stakes in his two starts after Ghostzapper crushed him. He also later won the Grade 1 Carter with a 110 Beyer and Grade 2 General Geroge with a 109 Beyer back-to-back. He was no bum. Saint Liam was a HOY. Roses in May and Pleasently Perfect were both stars. Ghostzapper beat real horses - but he's most loved for the way he won races more than anything else.



Summer Bird was a distant 2nd to RA in the Haskell.

Macho Again and Bullsbay and Mine That Bird and Musket Man aren't impressive at all relative to other 1-2 finishers of the Preakness and Woodward .. but keep in mind you're talking about a 3-year-old filly who beat them .. and in both cases beat setup closers who were aided by strong paces that should have hindered her.

OK fair enough,she was a 3yo filly beating the boys. To be fair (If you really believe that the horse who finishes 2nd to the winner rates the quality of that winner) how about the remaining 2nd place finishers in her other races ?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

OK fair enough,she was a 3yo filly beating the boys. To be fair (If you really believe that the horse who finishes 2nd to the winner rates the quality of that winner) how about the remaining 2nd place finishers in her other races ?

Like a good little Gladiator out to give the blood lusting crowd in the arena what they came for ... she totally oblitered the 2nd place finishers in the Ky Oaks and Mother Goose.

Malibu Prayer - who was 2nd beaten 19+ lengths in the Mother Goose isn't a bad horse either - she's won a couple stakes since - including a victory in a Grade 2 stakes in her most recent start.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Like a good little Gladiator out to give the blood lusting crowd in the arena what they came for ... she totally oblitered the 2nd place finishers in the Ky Oaks and Mother Goose.

Malibu Prayer - who was 2nd beaten 19+ lengths in the Mother Goose isn't a bad horse either - she's won a couple stakes since - including a victory in a Grade 2 stakes in her most recent start.

I give.... there are no flaws in your reasoning. Zenyatta truly is an overrated horse.

[AeWingnut]

I thought Rachael would have won if she was at her best but you can't blame Zenyatta for Rachael not making the race.

I doubt Zenyatta even broke a sweat yesterday. She didn't have to.
People bad mouthed the great Cigar becasue he didn't beat anyone. Who was better?

ok, so...


who is Zenyatta ducking?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

People bad mouthed the great Cigar becasue he didn't beat anyone. Who was better?

Cigar faced and beat SEVERAL excellent horses.

SEVERAL of his performances were excellent.