Zenyatta: Slayer of Scoundrels

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Say my little sister licks your ass. Doubtful you then want to get a significantly more severe ass licking from me. The old rich wine guy understands this. BEYERITES don't.

When you're able to take my little sister, feel free to open your mouth. Until then, STFU.

Fixed that for you.

[10 pnt move up]

Hard to believe Doug feels that the same quality of horses would be entering most of these races had Zenyatta not been in the field, so as he declares the 2nd place horse the would have been "worst winner of the race ever" its deceiving at best, but Doug knows this.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Hard to believe Doug feels that the same quality of horses would be entering most of these races had Zenyatta not been in the field, so as he declares the 2nd place horse the would have been "worst winner of the race ever" its deceiving at best, but Doug knows this.

Obviously the races would have been far more likely to attract respectable horses without Zenyatta running.

However ... the horses she has been beating have been mind bogglingly bad even with that considered.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

that would be Silver Wagon. He was beaten 1.25 lengths and 2.25 lengths in Grade 1 stakes in his two starts after Ghostzapper crushed him. He also later won the Grade 1 Carter with a 110 Beyer and Grade 2 General Geroge with a 109 Beyer back-to-back. He was no bum. Saint Liam was a HOY. Roses in May and Pleasently Perfect were both stars. Ghostzapper beat real horses - but he's most loved for the way he won races more than anything else.



Summer Bird was a distant 2nd to RA in the Haskell.

Macho Again and Bullsbay and Mine That Bird and Musket Man aren't impressive at all relative to other 1-2 finishers of the Preakness and Woodward .. but keep in mind you're talking about a 3-year-old filly who beat them .. and in both cases beat setup closers who were aided by strong paces that should have hindered her.

OK fair enough,she was a 3yo filly beating the boys. To be fair (If you really believe that the horse who finishes 2nd to the winner rates the quality of that winner) how about the remaining 2nd place finishers in her other races ?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Obviously the races would have been far more likely to attract respectable horses without Zenyatta running.

However ... the horses she has been beating have been mind bogglingly bad even with that considered.

I know, it does not make for compelling racing...there are way to many races around the country but usually the Apple Blossom is kind of the king of the female spring races. Even when a horse like Azeri ran, and Azeri could give Zenyatta everything she would want, there were good horses that showed up. Yesterday...not so much.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

OK fair enough,she was a 3yo filly beating the boys. To be fair (If you really believe that the horse who finishes 2nd to the winner rates the quality of that winner) how about the remaining 2nd place finishers in her other races ?

Like a good little Gladiator out to give the blood lusting crowd in the arena what they came for ... she totally oblitered the 2nd place finishers in the Ky Oaks and Mother Goose.

Malibu Prayer - who was 2nd beaten 19+ lengths in the Mother Goose isn't a bad horse either - she's won a couple stakes since - including a victory in a Grade 2 stakes in her most recent start.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

She's not lucky.

She's just been very carefully managed and other than about three times in her career - she's faced pure crap.

I think we can agree, the pure crap competition argument is one used to obfuscate the true quality of Zenyatta because what else is there to pick on? The beyers since she never lost? To use a quote from a beyer guy that at times you don't need to overanalyse every part of a horse's resume to know the horse deserves all of her accolades.
Steve Crist mentioned in his blog "Zenyatta, is a transcendently great horse who handles everything and is probably as good or better on dirt than on synthetics.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Like a good little Gladiator out to give the blood lusting crowd in the arena what they came for ... she totally oblitered the 2nd place finishers in the Ky Oaks and Mother Goose.

Malibu Prayer - who was 2nd beaten 19+ lengths in the Mother Goose isn't a bad horse either - she's won a couple stakes since - including a victory in a Grade 2 stakes in her most recent start.

I give.... there are no flaws in your reasoning. Zenyatta truly is an overrated horse.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think we can agree, the pure crap competition argument is one used to obfuscate the true quality of Zenyatta because what else is there to pick on? The beyers since she never lost? To use a quote from a beyer guy that at times you don't need to overanalyse every part of a horse's resume to know the horse deserves all of her accolades.
Steve Crist mentioned in his blog "Zenyatta, is a transcendently great horse who handles everything and is probably as good or better on dirt than on synthetics.

So if the Washington Nationals go 162-0 on a tour of facing America's high school teams on their own diamonds, the "they beat pure crap" argument would just be a diversion from how truly great the Nationals were and those arguments would be nothing but ways to obfuscate the true quality of that baseball team?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

So if the Washington Nationals go 162-0 on a tour of facing America's high school teams on their own diamonds, the "they beat pure crap" argument would just be a diversion from how truly great the Nationals were and those arguments would be nothing but ways to obfuscate the true quality of that baseball team?

That's a horrible example, short of Zenyatta winning with one leg tied behind her back while conceding 30 lbs to the field because we know 16lbs is certainly not enough to impress, I don't ever think there is anything she can do to impress the naysayers.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by CSC

That's a horrible example, short of Zenyatta winning with one leg tied behind her back while conceding 30 lbs to the field because we know 16lbs is certainly not enough to impress, I don't ever think there is anything she can do to impress the naysayers.

She must run a beyer above 120, beat horses that have run beyers above 110 and not have the worst horse to have ever won the race she is in run 2nd.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

She must run a beyer above 120, beat horses that have run beyers above 110 and not have the worst horse to have ever won the race she is in run 2nd.

To be truly consistent here, or beat Macho Uno & or Bullsbay carrying 117 while beyering 107 to be considered as great or as great as Princess "when do I find a race without Zenyatta in it" Rachel.

[2Hot4TV]

Blah,Blah, Blah, Zeyatta haters keep trying to find a horse to out run her closing run.

I would like to see her at Belmont with QR in a one turn mile and that long run to the wire.

Who would of thought that a pure closer would be undefeated. 16 for 16 no matter what the pace was and all the Zenyatta haters have to say is that she is a synthetic track over achiver and run against cheap horses. Go figure

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by CSC

That's a horrible example, short of Zenyatta winning with one leg tied behind her back while conceding 30 lbs to the field because we know 16lbs is certainly not enough to impress, I don't ever think there is anything she can do to impress the naysayers.

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

She must run a beyer above 120, beat horses that have run beyers above 110 and not have the worst horse to have ever won the race she is in run 2nd.

Not so much. It's just something about those who are foaming at the mouth about her greatness when in a 16 race career, she's been great as far as consistency goes, but has not had to actually be "great" to win about 12-13 of those races, because the horses she had to beat were maybe (being generous) Grade III types.

I'm impressed by her. I respect the hell out of her. I had an opinion on some bull$hit awards last year, but don't think Zenyatta is a bad horse. She's a very good, very consistent horse who has been carefully managed and beaten up on horses who belonged in Grade III stakes on their best days.

The reality is that there is nothing short of calling her the greatest mare ever while completely ignoring any objective analysis her competition, and breathing heavily out of my mouth in a panicked way that will *ever* be taken as anything less than a grave insult to Zenyatta by you, CSC. It's not that nobody is impressed. It's that your myopic view on the subject has led you to the point where nobody can objectively say anything about her or the crap she's been beating without you taking it personally and trying to turn it into something personal, some grudge against the horse -- something that it's not.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

Steve Crist mentioned in his blog "Zenyatta, is a transcendently great horse who handles everything and is probably as good or better on dirt than on synthetics.

"Transcendently great horse who handles everything" is kind of hard to stomach when it's coming from someone who rates Commentator the 2nd best horse of the last decade to not win a championship.

Commentator was 3-for-12 lifetime in Graded Stakes and not one for handling anything when he got a lot of pressure. He is a horse most likely to be appreciated by New Yorkers and the coldest of speed figure lovers.

Steve Crist is a great writer and obviously someone who knows horse racing extremely well.

He almost never is provocative though.

You know how some places have a thumbs-up and thumbs-down feature after you read a column. Crist's work always comes off as though he's shooting for all thumbs up from everyone.

I much prefer someone who is shooting for a thumbs down rating from every stupid person who disagrees with what they've just read...instead of someone who comes off like an impressive politican trying to pile up votes.

Sadly .. very few racing writers have that style .. and the ones who do often have brutally bad opinions or takes. Beyer is obviously the big exception.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

So if the Washington Nationals go 162-0 on a tour of facing America's high school teams on their own diamonds, the "they beat pure crap" argument would just be a diversion from how truly great the Nationals were and those arguments would be nothing but ways to obfuscate the true quality of that baseball team?

Originally Posted by CSC

That's a horrible example.

On second thought, you're right -- this is a horrible example, because it involves them actually being on the road.

These threads turn into rabble rabble rabble. I like it.


Zenyatta Rabble Rabble Rabble.

Duhr RA Rabble Rabble Rabble.

F.uck both of them.

I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I don't even know you, but I hate you. I hate your guts. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you and only to you.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Hey Coach, is that really you in that picture?

Signed,

Joseph S.

[PeteMugg]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

On second thought, you're right -- this is a horrible example, because it involves them actually being on the road.

Odd timing, but note that Zenyatta has raced outside of Cali as often as Personal Ensign raced outside of New York. I'm not knocking PE, her competition or her accomplishments, but when you're the champ they have to come and get you.

This time Z came to the middle of the country to race on the dirt with fair notice to all. What's a gal gotta do?

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

And who exactly has Rachel ever beat that Zenyatta wouldn't have? Macho Again? Bullsbay? The fact of the matter is Zenyatta has beat every rival to line up against her, when the pace has been against her, in big fields and small and on dirt and 3 different synthetic surfaces, why STILL disparage her?

The facts are Zenyatta is every bit the champion Rachel is, and in my opinion, she's better.

Do you really think that z could beat Summer Bird at 9-12 furlongs on real dirt?