NYTHA Lasix Primer & Letter to NYS RWB

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

That isn't what I said, and you know it. I guess you are still sore I said it isn't always about the horse, even though you know it is true. So you twist things and make others up instead of admitting your psychotic rant was totally out of line.

No, that's exactly what you said. Here. Read your words:

cmorioles wrote: "The retroactive studies using actual racing results are particularly laughable. I have a database with nearly a million races in it that can easily disprove any of the conclusions they drew from the data they had."

I'll inform Gluck and NIH that it is worthless to do any research using actual horses races or laboratory imitation of racing conditions, because cmorioles has a database that can easily disprove any of the conclusions they draw from the data they have.

You might want to look up "psychotic". It doesn't mean how you are using it. And, again:the climate deniers need men who think like you.

It's nice to know that, throughout weeks of discussion regarding lasix, you and your buddy Rollo have absolutely refused to acknowledge any piece of evidence that even remotely negatively impacts your preformed opinions.

Good luck with that, guys.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, that's exactly what you said. Here. Read your words:



I'll inform Gluck and NIH that it is worthless to do any research using actual horses races or laboratory imitation of racing conditions, because cmorioles has a database that can easily disprove any of the conclusions they draw from the data they have.

You might want to look up "psychotic". It doesn't mean how you are using it. And, again:the climate deniers need men who think like you.

It's nice to know that, throughout weeks of discussion regarding lasix, you and your buddy Rollo have absolutely refused to acknowledge any piece of evidence that even remotely negatively impacts your preformed opinions.

Good luck with that, guys.

I clearly was referencing the studies about Lasix and performance that used actual race results, nothing more. Only an idiot could stretch that to other fields.like weather. Well, an idiot or a psycho.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I clearly was referencing the studies about Lasix and performance that used actual race results, nothing more. Only an idiot could stretch that to other fields.like weather. Well, an idiot or a psycho.

Nope. All you said was, "I read the reports". I asked you which specific studies you have determined, in your infinite wisdom, were inadequate, poor methodology, etc.

You declined to answer. You still haven't.

So answer now. Name one of those hundreds of peer-reviewed, published study where you have determined the methodology is wrong making the results wrong.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, that's exactly what you said. Here. Read your words:



I'll inform Gluck and NIH that it is worthless to do any research using actual horses races or laboratory imitation of racing conditions, because cmorioles has a database that can easily disprove any of the conclusions they draw from the data they have.

You might want to look up "psychotic". It doesn't mean how you are using it. And, again:the climate deniers need men who think like you.

It's nice to know that, throughout weeks of discussion regarding lasix, you and your buddy Rollo have absolutely refused to acknowledge any piece of evidence that even remotely negatively impacts your preformed opinions.

Good luck with that, guys.

I really think you should go over to England and some of the other countries where lasix is banned on race day. I think if you explained to them how beneficial lasix is to the horses, I'm sure they would legalize it. Nobody over there understands. They are just ignorant in all of those countries. I think you need to enlighten them. I mean the arguments in favor of lasix are so strong, I don't know how anyone could be against it.

Guys like myself, Cmorioles, and RolloTomassi are just stubborn. We know that lasix is great for the horses. Lasix has improved Amercian racing immensely. There is no chance that lasix is one of the contributing factors to horses having fewer starts per year now than they did 30 years ago.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Guys like myself, Cmorioles, and RolloTomassi are just stubborn. We know that lasix is great for the horses. Lasix has improved Amercian racing immensely. There is no chance that lasix is one of the contributing factors to horses having fewer starts per year now than they did 30 years ago.

Yep, I'm sure racing with 20 pounds lost before the race is great for them. I know when I run, I always take a water pill to shed myself of 4 or 5 pounds of water weight. It is a great way to compete. I'm also sure that these vets know everything there is to know about the after effects of Lasix in the short time it has been used regularly and that is has absolutely nothing to do with the pathetic state of the game today.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Yep, I'm sure racing with 20 pounds lost before the race is great for them. I know when I run, I always take a water pill to shed myself of 4 or 5 pounds of water weight. It is a great way to compete. I'm also sure that these vets know everything there is to know about the after effects of Lasix in the short time it has been used regularly and that is has absolutely nothing to do with the pathetic state of the game today.

How do you know that you shouldn't shed 4 or 5 pounds of water before you run? Since you are not a doctor, how would you possibly know that it is not good to dehydrate yourself before exercising? LOL.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

How do you know that you shouldn't shed 4 or 5 pounds of water before you run? Since you are not a doctor, how would you possibly know that it is not good to dehydrate yourself before exercising? LOL.

I'm going to shoot myself up with Lasix next time. I bet I run faster! I just won't recover as well. Those weekly runs will turn into monthly runs.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm going to shoot myself up with Lasix next time. I bet I run faster! I just won't recover as well. Those weekly runs will turn into monthly runs.

You definitely would not recover as well. Even if you heavily hydrated yourself after the run, it still would not totally undue the damage. You don't have to be a doctor to know that. That is common sense.

When it comes to horses, they are probably going to get pretty dehydrated from racing on a 90 degree day, even without lasix. Running with lasix on a 90 degree day cannot be good. You don't have to be a veterinarian to know that.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Guys like myself, Cmorioles, and RolloTomassi are just stubborn.

Yes, you guys are quite the show. You are the very picture of 12-year-old boys in a locker room, comparing sizes.

Unfortunately, no matter how often you curse those you disagree with, your obvious stubbornness and ignorance, your refusal to change poorly-informed dogma in the face of experts pointing out your fallacy and falsehood, is a danger to this sport.

The fact remains that your guys uninformed, outdated and wrong opinions are a tiny minority. You're the equivalent of conspiracy theorists and Jenny McCarthy. You do scream ever more loudly and rudely, however, in an attempt to compensate for the lack of fact and truth. Insecurity must be a scary thing for the uninformed and uninformable, to have their dogmatic ideas assaulted but not be able to comprehend or change with the times.

You "know what you know", and dammit, you don't need to consider that you might possibly be entirely wrong.

It has to be very, very dark where your heads are at. But stop trying to ruin horse racing for the rest of us.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

It has to be very, very dark where your heads are at. But stop trying to ruin horse racing for the rest of us.

You don't need us for that. We already have drugs and plenty of unscrupulous trainers.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You don't need us for that. We already have drugs and plenty of unscrupulous trainers.

Then why are you wasting time screaming about lasix? Racing has plenty of real drug problems.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes, you guys are quite the show. You are the very picture of 12-year-old boys in a locker room, comparing sizes.

Unfortunately, no matter how often you curse those you disagree with, your obvious stubbornness and ignorance, your refusal to change poorly-informed dogma in the face of experts pointing out your fallacy and falsehood, is a danger to this sport.

The fact remains that your guys uninformed, outdated and wrong opinions are a tiny minority. You're the equivalent of conspiracy theorists and Jenny McCarthy. You do scream ever more loudly and rudely, however, in an attempt to compensate for the lack of fact and truth. Insecurity must be a scary thing for the uninformed and uninformable, to have their dogmatic ideas assaulted but not be able to comprehend or change with the times.

You "know what you know", and dammit, you don't need to consider that you might possibly be entirely wrong.

It has to be very, very dark where your heads are at. But stop trying to ruin horse racing for the rest of us.

It must be very dark where your head is. You think that because you are a vet, you are the only one with a valid opinion? That is ridiculous. And by the way, there are plenty of vets who don't think horses need lasix.

By the way, you don't exactly improve your credibility by saying "eliminating lasix will ruin horseracing". That is one of the most absurd comments I have ever heard. Not even the most ardent supporters of lasix would make such a claim. That is even more absurd than someone claiming that the elimination of lasix will be the cure-all for the sport.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It must be very dark where your head is. You think that because you are a vet, you are the only one with a valid opinion?

Not at all. But I'm not the one forming my opinion by deliberately ignoring science and reality. You are.

We don't need more uneducated lasix conspiracy nuts. We need leadership.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Not at all. But I'm not the one forming my opinion by deliberately ignoring science and reality. You are.

We don't need more uneducated lasix conspiracy nuts. We need leadership.

What part of science and reality am I ignoring? I never said that laisx is totally ineffective in lessening the chances and severity of bleeding.

The one ignoring reality is you. You say that "eliminating lasix will ruin horseracing". To make a statement like that you must be totally out of touch with reality. For years we had no lasix in this country and racing was great. In other countries they have no lasix and racing is great. So how would eliminating lasix ruin racing?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What part of science and reality am I ignoring? I never said that laisx is totally ineffective in lessening the chances and severity of bleeding.

The one ignoring reality is you. You say that "eliminating lasix will ruin horseracing". To make a statement like that you must be totally out of touch with reality. For years we had no lasix in this country and racing was great. In other countries they have no lasix and racing is great. So how would eliminating lasix ruin racing?

Well, me and 60,000 other professionals in the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Association of Equine Practitioners, and many a trainer.

But you hold on to your tiny minority opinion about lasix as a root of evil in horse racing.

Either you believe in therapeutic medication and modern veterinary medicine for hard-working equine athletes, or you do not.

You don't.

Yeah: I say that attitude isn't good for the horse, and will ruin racing.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes, you guys are quite the show. You are the very picture of 12-year-old boys in a locker room, comparing sizes.

Unfortunately, no matter how often you curse those you disagree with, your obvious stubbornness and ignorance, your refusal to change poorly-informed dogma in the face of experts pointing out your fallacy and falsehood, is a danger to this sport.

The fact remains that your guys uninformed, outdated and wrong opinions are a tiny minority. You're the equivalent of conspiracy theorists and Jenny McCarthy. You do scream ever more loudly and rudely, however, in an attempt to compensate for the lack of fact and truth. Insecurity must be a scary thing for the uninformed and uninformable, to have their dogmatic ideas assaulted but not be able to comprehend or change with the times.

You "know what you know", and dammit, you don't need to consider that you might possibly be entirely wrong.

It has to be very, very dark where your heads are at. But stop trying to ruin horse racing for the rest of us.

The truth of the matter is that you are not an iota more qualified than anyone else to decide whether lasix is good for racing or not. I think everyone knows that lasix is somewhat effective in lessening a horse's chances of bleeding. We all know what. That is not the question. If that was the question, I would agree that you have more expertise than most. But that is not the question. The question is whether lasix is good for racing or not. When it comes to that question, most countries believe the answer is "no". Are they right? They're not necessarily right but they weighed all the pros and cons of racing with lasix and they decided the cons outweigh the pros. What is it that you know that these countries don't know? The answer is nothing. You both have all the information. You both looked at all the arguments (in favor of lasix and against lasix) and you came to opposite conclusions. There is not necessarily a right or wrong answer. It is just a matter of opinion.

There is a right and wrong answer as to whether lasix lessens a horse's chance of bleeding. But there is not a right or wrong answer as to whether lasix is good for horseracing.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The truth of the matter is that you are not an iota more qualified than anyone else to decide whether lasix is good for racing or not. I think everyone knows that lasix is somewhat effective in lessening a horse's chances of bleeding. We all know what. That is not the question. If that was the question, I would agree that you have more expertise than most. But that is not the question. The question is whether lasix is good for racing or not. When it comes to that question, most countries believe the answer is "no". Are they right? They're not necessarily right but they weighed all the pros and cons of racing with lasix and they decided the cons outweigh the pros. What is it that you know that these countries don't know? The answer is nothing. You both have all the information. You both looked at all the arguments (in favor of lasix and against lasix) and you came to opposite conclusions. There is not necessarily a right or wrong answer. It is just a matter of opinion.

There is a right and wrong answer as to whether lasix lessens a horse's chance of bleeding. But there is not a right or wrong answer as to whether lasix is good for horseracing.

I think Lasix is the least issue people should be taking issue with. But WTF do I know? Im not a vet or a trainer Im just a person who works with and rides horses everyday and from my stand point having ridden races I was never worried the horse was gonna throw one off because it had Lasix.
Why not start with Bute? Or Cortizone or why not make every horse that is on the vets list have a full exam, x-rays and all before it works to get off the list. There is a whole lot of other crap that should be done in racing way before the outlawing of Lasix, but what do I know.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Honu

I think Lasix is the least issue people should be taking issue with. But WTF do I know? Im not a vet or a trainer Im just a person who works with and rides horses everyday and from my stand point having ridden races I was never worried the horse was gonna throw one off because it had Lasix.
Why not start with Bute? Or Cortizone or why not make every horse that is on the vets list have a full exam, x-rays and all before it works to get off the list. There is a whole lot of other crap that should be done in racing way before the outlawing of Lasix, but what do I know.

Those are good points. I agree with everything you said.

I would be in favor of all of those things. I wish they would implement everything you are suggesting. As we both know, I'm sure they aren't going to do all of those things overnight. If they start doing them, it will probably be one thing at a time. I don't care which one they start with, as long as they start somewhere.

I think lasix should be somewhere on that list too. And as I said, I don't care what comes first on the list.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The truth of the matter is that you are not an iota more qualified than anyone else to decide whether lasix is good for racing or not.

The truth of the matter is that I am far more qualified than you. I actually treat animals, including horses, with lasix, I am trained in it's pharmacology and use, I have a license and degree that proves that, and I am a published researcher regarding the pharmacologic effect of lasix in race horses.

You? You're a rude guy on the internet. You're entitled to an opinion on race day medications, but when you start saying false things about lasix to advance an agenda, I call bullsh.i.at. on the lasix lies. Because, yes, I know far more about lasix than you do.

But that is not the question. The question is whether lasix is good for racing or not.

The question is do you think using therapeutic medications that help protect the lungs of race horses should continue to be allowed?

You say no. Good luck with that. I'll fight you and your ilk every step of the way.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

The truth of the matter is that I am far more qualified than you. I actually treat animals, including horses, with lasix, I am trained in it's pharmacology and use, I have a license and degree that proves that, and I am a published researcher regarding the pharmacologic effect of lasix in race horses.

You? You're a rude guy on the internet. You're entitled to an opinion on race day medications, but when you start saying false things about lasix to advance an agenda, I call bullsh.i.at. on the lasix lies. Because, yes, I know far more about lasix than you do.



The question is do you think using therapeutic medications that help protect the lungs of race horses should continue to be allowed?

You say no. Good luck with that. I'll fight you and your ilk every step of the way.

You are more qualified than most to discuss the efficacy of lasix in preventing and/or lessening bleeding.

I've been in the business for 29 years as a bettor, owner, and racing manager. I talk to trainers every day. I talk to vets all the time. I look at our horses several times a week. I've been directly involved with close to 100 horses over the years. Do I know as much about lasix as you? Of course not. But I know enough about it and enough about all aspects of the business to have an informed opinion on the issue.

My opinion isn't necessarily right but it is at least an informed opinion.

You say I'm a "rude guy on the internet". I've posted on this board for several years and I think at least 95% of the posters would disagree with you. I think most people would tell you that I am one of the most polite people on this board.