NYTHA Lasix Primer & Letter to NYS RWB

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Guys like myself, Cmorioles, and RolloTomassi are just stubborn.

Yes, you guys are quite the show. You are the very picture of 12-year-old boys in a locker room, comparing sizes.

Unfortunately, no matter how often you curse those you disagree with, your obvious stubbornness and ignorance, your refusal to change poorly-informed dogma in the face of experts pointing out your fallacy and falsehood, is a danger to this sport.

The fact remains that your guys uninformed, outdated and wrong opinions are a tiny minority. You're the equivalent of conspiracy theorists and Jenny McCarthy. You do scream ever more loudly and rudely, however, in an attempt to compensate for the lack of fact and truth. Insecurity must be a scary thing for the uninformed and uninformable, to have their dogmatic ideas assaulted but not be able to comprehend or change with the times.

You "know what you know", and dammit, you don't need to consider that you might possibly be entirely wrong.

It has to be very, very dark where your heads are at. But stop trying to ruin horse racing for the rest of us.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

It has to be very, very dark where your heads are at. But stop trying to ruin horse racing for the rest of us.

You don't need us for that. We already have drugs and plenty of unscrupulous trainers.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You don't need us for that. We already have drugs and plenty of unscrupulous trainers.

Then why are you wasting time screaming about lasix? Racing has plenty of real drug problems.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes, you guys are quite the show. You are the very picture of 12-year-old boys in a locker room, comparing sizes.

Unfortunately, no matter how often you curse those you disagree with, your obvious stubbornness and ignorance, your refusal to change poorly-informed dogma in the face of experts pointing out your fallacy and falsehood, is a danger to this sport.

The fact remains that your guys uninformed, outdated and wrong opinions are a tiny minority. You're the equivalent of conspiracy theorists and Jenny McCarthy. You do scream ever more loudly and rudely, however, in an attempt to compensate for the lack of fact and truth. Insecurity must be a scary thing for the uninformed and uninformable, to have their dogmatic ideas assaulted but not be able to comprehend or change with the times.

You "know what you know", and dammit, you don't need to consider that you might possibly be entirely wrong.

It has to be very, very dark where your heads are at. But stop trying to ruin horse racing for the rest of us.

It must be very dark where your head is. You think that because you are a vet, you are the only one with a valid opinion? That is ridiculous. And by the way, there are plenty of vets who don't think horses need lasix.

By the way, you don't exactly improve your credibility by saying "eliminating lasix will ruin horseracing". That is one of the most absurd comments I have ever heard. Not even the most ardent supporters of lasix would make such a claim. That is even more absurd than someone claiming that the elimination of lasix will be the cure-all for the sport.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It must be very dark where your head is. You think that because you are a vet, you are the only one with a valid opinion?

Not at all. But I'm not the one forming my opinion by deliberately ignoring science and reality. You are.

We don't need more uneducated lasix conspiracy nuts. We need leadership.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Not at all. But I'm not the one forming my opinion by deliberately ignoring science and reality. You are.

We don't need more uneducated lasix conspiracy nuts. We need leadership.

What part of science and reality am I ignoring? I never said that laisx is totally ineffective in lessening the chances and severity of bleeding.

The one ignoring reality is you. You say that "eliminating lasix will ruin horseracing". To make a statement like that you must be totally out of touch with reality. For years we had no lasix in this country and racing was great. In other countries they have no lasix and racing is great. So how would eliminating lasix ruin racing?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What part of science and reality am I ignoring? I never said that laisx is totally ineffective in lessening the chances and severity of bleeding.

The one ignoring reality is you. You say that "eliminating lasix will ruin horseracing". To make a statement like that you must be totally out of touch with reality. For years we had no lasix in this country and racing was great. In other countries they have no lasix and racing is great. So how would eliminating lasix ruin racing?

Well, me and 60,000 other professionals in the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Association of Equine Practitioners, and many a trainer.

But you hold on to your tiny minority opinion about lasix as a root of evil in horse racing.

Either you believe in therapeutic medication and modern veterinary medicine for hard-working equine athletes, or you do not.

You don't.

Yeah: I say that attitude isn't good for the horse, and will ruin racing.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Either you believe in therapeutic medication and modern veterinary medicine for hard-working equine athletes, or you do not.

Is the issue of therapeutic medication really that black-and-white? No grey areas?

Do you think there are instances where therapeutic medication is used when not indicated, overused, or even abused?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Is the issue of therapeutic medication really that black-and-white? No grey areas?

Do you think there are instances where therapeutic medication is used when not indicated, overused, or even abused?

Do you think therapeutic medications can be allowed on race day, or not?

The very definition of therapeutic medication is that used at the proper dose, under veterinary supervision, for the proper indication.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Well, me and 60,000 other professionals in the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Association of Equine Practitioners, and many a trainer.

But you hold on to your tiny minority opinion about lasix as a root of evil in horse racing.

Either you believe in therapeutic medication and modern veterinary medicine for hard-working equine athletes, or you do not.

You don't.

Yeah: I say that attitude isn't good for the horse, and will ruin racing.

I don't think too many of those 60,000 people would say that "eliminating lasix will ruin horseracing". I think you are in the minority there.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think too many of those 60,000 people would say that "eliminating lasix will ruin horseracing". I think you are in the minority there.

How about 60,000 professionals advising that, "eliminating race day lasix is bad for the health and welfare of the horse".

Considering that the health and welfare of the horse enables horse racing's existence, it's not really hyperbole.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes, you guys are quite the show. You are the very picture of 12-year-old boys in a locker room, comparing sizes.

Unfortunately, no matter how often you curse those you disagree with, your obvious stubbornness and ignorance, your refusal to change poorly-informed dogma in the face of experts pointing out your fallacy and falsehood, is a danger to this sport.

The fact remains that your guys uninformed, outdated and wrong opinions are a tiny minority. You're the equivalent of conspiracy theorists and Jenny McCarthy. You do scream ever more loudly and rudely, however, in an attempt to compensate for the lack of fact and truth. Insecurity must be a scary thing for the uninformed and uninformable, to have their dogmatic ideas assaulted but not be able to comprehend or change with the times.

You "know what you know", and dammit, you don't need to consider that you might possibly be entirely wrong.

It has to be very, very dark where your heads are at. But stop trying to ruin horse racing for the rest of us.

The truth of the matter is that you are not an iota more qualified than anyone else to decide whether lasix is good for racing or not. I think everyone knows that lasix is somewhat effective in lessening a horse's chances of bleeding. We all know what. That is not the question. If that was the question, I would agree that you have more expertise than most. But that is not the question. The question is whether lasix is good for racing or not. When it comes to that question, most countries believe the answer is "no". Are they right? They're not necessarily right but they weighed all the pros and cons of racing with lasix and they decided the cons outweigh the pros. What is it that you know that these countries don't know? The answer is nothing. You both have all the information. You both looked at all the arguments (in favor of lasix and against lasix) and you came to opposite conclusions. There is not necessarily a right or wrong answer. It is just a matter of opinion.

There is a right and wrong answer as to whether lasix lessens a horse's chance of bleeding. But there is not a right or wrong answer as to whether lasix is good for horseracing.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The truth of the matter is that you are not an iota more qualified than anyone else to decide whether lasix is good for racing or not. I think everyone knows that lasix is somewhat effective in lessening a horse's chances of bleeding. We all know what. That is not the question. If that was the question, I would agree that you have more expertise than most. But that is not the question. The question is whether lasix is good for racing or not. When it comes to that question, most countries believe the answer is "no". Are they right? They're not necessarily right but they weighed all the pros and cons of racing with lasix and they decided the cons outweigh the pros. What is it that you know that these countries don't know? The answer is nothing. You both have all the information. You both looked at all the arguments (in favor of lasix and against lasix) and you came to opposite conclusions. There is not necessarily a right or wrong answer. It is just a matter of opinion.

There is a right and wrong answer as to whether lasix lessens a horse's chance of bleeding. But there is not a right or wrong answer as to whether lasix is good for horseracing.

I think Lasix is the least issue people should be taking issue with. But WTF do I know? Im not a vet or a trainer Im just a person who works with and rides horses everyday and from my stand point having ridden races I was never worried the horse was gonna throw one off because it had Lasix.
Why not start with Bute? Or Cortizone or why not make every horse that is on the vets list have a full exam, x-rays and all before it works to get off the list. There is a whole lot of other crap that should be done in racing way before the outlawing of Lasix, but what do I know.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Honu

I think Lasix is the least issue people should be taking issue with. But WTF do I know? Im not a vet or a trainer Im just a person who works with and rides horses everyday and from my stand point having ridden races I was never worried the horse was gonna throw one off because it had Lasix.
Why not start with Bute? Or Cortizone or why not make every horse that is on the vets list have a full exam, x-rays and all before it works to get off the list. There is a whole lot of other crap that should be done in racing way before the outlawing of Lasix, but what do I know.

Those are good points. I agree with everything you said.

I would be in favor of all of those things. I wish they would implement everything you are suggesting. As we both know, I'm sure they aren't going to do all of those things overnight. If they start doing them, it will probably be one thing at a time. I don't care which one they start with, as long as they start somewhere.

I think lasix should be somewhere on that list too. And as I said, I don't care what comes first on the list.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The truth of the matter is that you are not an iota more qualified than anyone else to decide whether lasix is good for racing or not.

The truth of the matter is that I am far more qualified than you. I actually treat animals, including horses, with lasix, I am trained in it's pharmacology and use, I have a license and degree that proves that, and I am a published researcher regarding the pharmacologic effect of lasix in race horses.

You? You're a rude guy on the internet. You're entitled to an opinion on race day medications, but when you start saying false things about lasix to advance an agenda, I call bullsh.i.at. on the lasix lies. Because, yes, I know far more about lasix than you do.

But that is not the question. The question is whether lasix is good for racing or not.

The question is do you think using therapeutic medications that help protect the lungs of race horses should continue to be allowed?

You say no. Good luck with that. I'll fight you and your ilk every step of the way.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

The truth of the matter is that I am far more qualified than you. I actually treat animals, including horses, with lasix, I am trained in it's pharmacology and use, I have a license and degree that proves that, and I am a published researcher regarding the pharmacologic effect of lasix in race horses.

You? You're a rude guy on the internet. You're entitled to an opinion on race day medications, but when you start saying false things about lasix to advance an agenda, I call bullsh.i.at. on the lasix lies. Because, yes, I know far more about lasix than you do.



The question is do you think using therapeutic medications that help protect the lungs of race horses should continue to be allowed?

You say no. Good luck with that. I'll fight you and your ilk every step of the way.

You are more qualified than most to discuss the efficacy of lasix in preventing and/or lessening bleeding.

I've been in the business for 29 years as a bettor, owner, and racing manager. I talk to trainers every day. I talk to vets all the time. I look at our horses several times a week. I've been directly involved with close to 100 horses over the years. Do I know as much about lasix as you? Of course not. But I know enough about it and enough about all aspects of the business to have an informed opinion on the issue.

My opinion isn't necessarily right but it is at least an informed opinion.

You say I'm a "rude guy on the internet". I've posted on this board for several years and I think at least 95% of the posters would disagree with you. I think most people would tell you that I am one of the most polite people on this board.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You are more qualified than most to discuss the efficacy of lasix in preventing and/or lessening bleeding.

That's right. And when the anti- lasix proponents start lying about the drug, and the science surrounding it, in order to further their agenda, that's when I entered the conversation.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You are more qualified than most to discuss the efficacy of lasix in preventing and/or lessening bleeding.

I've been in the business for 29 years as a bettor, owner, and racing manager. I talk to trainers every day. I talk to vets all the time. I look at our horses several times a week. I've been directly involved with close to 100 horses over the years. Do I know as much about lasix as you? Of course not. But I know enough about it and enough about all aspects of the business to have an informed opinion on the issue.

My opinion isn't necessarily right but it is at least an informed opinion.

You say I'm a "rude guy on the internet". I've posted on this board for several years and I think at least 95% of the posters would disagree with you. I think most people would tell you that I am one of the most polite people on this board.

You are far more qualified to comment on lasix then a hack vet standing behind 60k other hack vets. Just because you did 8 years of school in Guadalajara doesn't make your opinion more qualified. Rollo just googles the stuff she alleges to know about and rebuts this hack at every turn. CJ points the proliferation of the drug in 99% of the horses, the hack reps they dont all NEED the drug, yet she is OK with horses getting it when it is not indicated. Why? simple she earns on treating horses and while nobody including a hack vet is getting rich sticking horses in the neck with 60 bucks worth of lasix its all the goodies that come with the "therapeutic drug" that such vets are after. It's a job they get paid to fix horses and make them feel better. You think its for the love of the animal these people work? I have nothing against earning and appreciate that some vets love horses, they also have trailer loads of Lubrisol etc to move and bills to pay. Hence 60k think its ok to juice a horse up with anything perceived to me safe.

The Vets are the real stars in todays racing world, not the horses, not the jock and not the trainers.

[Powderfinger]

What if they banned not only lasix but "bleeders" from racing? Say that after every race, the track vet examines the contestants and anyone with more that level 2 bleeding, or whatever, is disqualified from purse money. This certainly would change the picture, wouldn't it? Trainers would not only have to be concerned with how fast the horse is running but whether the horse is hurting himself or not.

Why is the horse's lungs bleeding? Because he's doing something he shouldn't. We've bred this animal to win and try at all costs. If I had an animal act where poodles jumped through a hoop 1000 times a second but , darn, their lungs bleed at the end, I'd be arrested for animal cruelty.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Powderfinger

What if they banned not only lasix but "bleeders" from racing? Say that after every race, the track vet examines the contestants and anyone with more that level 2 bleeding, or whatever, is disqualified from purse money. This certainly would change the picture, wouldn't it? Trainers would not only have to be concerned with how fast the horse is running but whether the horse is hurting himself or not.

Why is the horse's lungs bleeding? Because he's doing something he shouldn't. We've bred this animal to win and try at all costs. If I had an animal act where poodles jumped through a hoop 1000 times a second but , darn, their lungs bleed at the end, I'd be arrested for animal cruelty.

great idea. that would end racing once and for all. wouldn't take long either.