Doug O'Neill

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

so, illegal milkshaking should be ok because it staves off fatigue (wouldn't proper training do the same?) and can mask drugs, but lasix that prevents hemorraging into the lungs and permanent lung damage, and doesn't mask drugs is not. yeah, i'm the one that needs an open mind...

When I posted initially asking about milkshakes, I was not aware of the alleged masking uses. I thought that was pretty clear in my subsequent posts.

There has been considerable evidence that Lasix has been used to mask drugs, despite what our medical experts like to tell us.

Also, I would think reducing muscle fatigue is no small thing, especially since it's likely to have a reduction on injuries that cause fatalities. Sodium Bicarbonate has no harmful side effects either, something that cannot be said for any drug that is currently manufactured.

I'm sure you believe though that Lasix is totally safe, has no side effects, is never used to mask other drugs and is the only option to reduce bleeding.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

When I posted initially asking about milkshakes, I was not aware of the alleged masking uses. I thought that was pretty clear in my subsequent posts.

There has been considerable evidence that Lasix has been used to mask drugs, despite what our medical experts like to tell us.
Also, I would think reducing muscle fatigue is no small thing, especially since it's likely to have a reduction on injuries that cause fatalities. Sodium Bicarbonate has no harmful side effects either, something that cannot be said for any drug that is currently manufactured.

I'm sure you believe though that Lasix is totally safe, has no side effects, is never used to mask other drugs and is the only option to reduce bleeding.

everything i've seen says the contrary, except for what a few contrarians who aren't experts think. not know, think. and from what i've read, milkshaking masks. but then, it's probably the same experts you feel aren't experts who are saying that.

[Danzig]

yeah, poor doug o'neill.....people just trying to tear him down for no reason.


"O'Neill's week, on the other hand, was mostly uneventful until stories of his run-ins with racing officials on the milkshaking charges - his third in California and fourth in a career that has spanned 25 years - began making the rounds. O'Neill isn't the first trainer in the Triple Crown chase to have to answer questions about possible performance-enhancing - both Rick Dutrow, who won the 2008 Derby and Preakness and Jeff Mullins, who trained the 2009 morning-line favorite, got asked plenty of those - and he won't be the last. He understands scrutiny is part of the bargain.

Asked whether winning the Derby was validation for his career, which began taking off in 2005 yet remained confined largely to the West Coast, O'Neill answered evenly: ''I've never thought of it that way.''

''All those guys - the Bafferts, the (Nick) Zitos and (D. Wayne) Lukas - they've all battled their negative press days. You win the big one and people kind of want to go after you,'' he said. ''It has validated, to our team, that if we get a top 2-year-old we can turn him into a Derby winner. Hopefully it's the first of a few.''


shut up meg.

[pweizer]

The NY Times has now weighed in:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/11/sp...nted=1&_r=1&hp

The key quote:

Nationally, thoroughbred horses break down or show signs of injury at a rate of 5.1 per thousand starts, according to The Times’s analysis of more than 150,000 races over the past three years. In more than 2,300 starts, horses trained by O’Neill show a breakdown or injury frequency more than double that rate, at 12.0 per thousand starts.


“It’s a horrible statistic to be associated with,” O’Neill said.


In comparison, horses in the care of Motion — one of the trainers without a single drug violation and who will race Went the Day Well in the Preakness Stakes next Saturday — have started nearly 1,900 races and broken down or showed signs of injury in just 0.5 per thousand starts.

Paul

[Danzig]

oh, i missed this little gem in the yahoo article first time skimming it:


" the he-said, they-said dispute won't be resolved either way until after the Belmont closes out the Triple Crown season on the second Saturday in June"


he said they said??? seriously?! one of the reasons why they do need to take a long look at illegal drugs and how they're handled in this sport. the horses had a positive test-that's far more than he said they said.

absolutely ridiculous.


and thanks for the above post pweizer. eye-opening for sure. truly, that article exposes what is REALLY wrong with the sport. not race day medication, but race day cheaters. many trainers never get a positive, he's had several. and now he's in the limelight, and it's all coming out. just like with assman and dutrow. plenty of clean trainers to be had, but some owners want that win no matter how they get it, and hire people who will get it for them. this is the type of press we don't need. people joke about matz, where's his negatives? or graham motion with animal kingdom?

[slotdirt]

Focus is on trainers for obvious reasons, but owners keep giving guys with a multitude of positives lots of pretty horses to train. There has to be some culpability with the Reddams of the world as well.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Focus is on trainers for obvious reasons, but owners keep giving guys with a multitude of positives lots of pretty horses to train. There has to be some culpability with the Reddams of the world as well.

best thing to do is ban the cheating trainers. then stupid owners can't hire cheating trainers, they'd have to hire clean ones. and they do exist.

[tector]

Originally Posted by pweizer

The NY Times has now weighed in:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/11/sp...nted=1&_r=1&hp

The key quote:

Nationally, thoroughbred horses break down or show signs of injury at a rate of 5.1 per thousand starts, according to The Times’s analysis of more than 150,000 races over the past three years. In more than 2,300 starts, horses trained by O’Neill show a breakdown or injury frequency more than double that rate, at 12.0 per thousand starts.


“It’s a horrible statistic to be associated with,” O’Neill said.


In comparison, horses in the care of Motion — one of the trainers without a single drug violation and who will race Went the Day Well in the Preakness Stakes next Saturday — have started nearly 1,900 races and broken down or showed signs of injury in just 0.5 per thousand starts.

Paul

If these numbers are true, they are pretty damning.

I would also note that the Times article actually missed a significant angle--while they talked about milkshaking, they did not raise the drug-masking effect.

[Danzig]

'Over 14 years and in four different states, O’Neill received more than a dozen violations for giving his horses improper drugs. O’Neill’s horses also have had a tendency to break down. According to an analysis by The New York Times, the horses he trains break down or show signs of injury at more than twice the rate of the national average.

But none of it — the drug charges or the rate of damaged horses under his care — has much impeded O’Neill’s rise in the ranks of racing, and so there he was last Saturday, saddling I’ll Have Another, the surprising 3-year-old who won the 138th Kentucky Derby.'


but yeah, let's all just focus on lasix. then everything else will be juuuuust peachy.


this is what's wrong in racing. not something that prevents hemorraging. this-trainers who are repeat offenders that not only continue to work, but actually grow their business to the point that they can win the most famous race in the world. and then the media can go on and on about how they're a cheat. and what does the racing world do? go after lasix. not cheaters, not repeat offenders, not try to fix a flawed appeals process, nor fix the licensing standards. they go after something that actuallly protects a horses lungs, doesn't mask drugs, and isn't proven to enhance performance. we hear ad nauseum that we shouldn't have horses racing on drugs, and look what trainer is in the spotlight right now! absolutely ridiculous and disheartening.
and what is his response? oh, it's just negative press...just trying to go after us because we won. bull!

[tector]

This is one of the comments to the NYT article:

Geri Minott
Cardiff by the Sea, CA

NYT Pick

I had several horses in training with Doug O'Neill, and their careers didn't end happily. One was given the most brutal disregard I have ever seen given to a horse. I offered my partners 45K to sell me the horse and prevent his last race. I had felt his ankles and I knew that he had an ailing suspensory ligament. My veterinary surgeon will support this statement.

The horse was dropped from allowance into a claimer and not even given support wraps for the race in which he ended up listed as "vanned off." I spent 60K putting that horse back together, as best I could. I had another one fracture a knee in workout after I had asked that the horse be sent home for some rest time. Neither of those would even be included in the appalling statistic of Doug's breakdowns. The money I spent on rescue COULD have gone into the racing industry.

I have lots of disturbing photos if one wants a closer look. If Doug had even had the decency to put support wraps on the horse with a chronic suspensory condition, things might have been much better. I feel that the brutality is at least similar to that exhibited by the New Orleans Saints and the penalty should be the same. Doug's assistant trainer is a true horseman. Let him take over and show a kinder hand. Most importantly, end the use of pain killers on race days now.

May 11, 2012 at 11:27 a.m.

[slotdirt]

Yikes.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by tector

This is one of the comments to the NYT article:

why would a horse still be racing with a chronic suspensory problem?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

yeah, poor doug o'neill.....people just trying to tear him down for no reason.


"O'Neill's week, on the other hand, was mostly uneventful until stories of his run-ins with racing officials on the milkshaking charges - his third in California and fourth in a career that has spanned 25 years - began making the rounds. O'Neill isn't the first trainer in the Triple Crown chase to have to answer questions about possible performance-enhancing - both Rick Dutrow, who won the 2008 Derby and Preakness and Jeff Mullins, who trained the 2009 morning-line favorite, got asked plenty of those - and he won't be the last. He understands scrutiny is part of the bargain.

Asked whether winning the Derby was validation for his career, which began taking off in 2005 yet remained confined largely to the West Coast, O'Neill answered evenly: ''I've never thought of it that way.''

''All those guys - the Bafferts, the (Nick) Zitos and (D. Wayne) Lukas - they've all battled their negative press days. You win the big one and people kind of want to go after you,'' he said. ''It has validated, to our team, that if we get a top 2-year-old we can turn him into a Derby winner. Hopefully it's the first of a few.''


shut up meg.

Hmm.

I'm not sure where I said, or even implied anything about Doug O'Neill being picked on unfairly, but I guess these days if someone disagrees with you you can simply read anything into what the dissenter says.

Again, I was unaware of the masking properties of milkshaking when I posted my question. I'm not sure why that is hard for you to understand.

Another thing, why do trainers use lasix on horses that aren't bleeding? Is it something the horse is deficient in, and will not race well without? Like, kind of having a vitamin or mineral deficiency?

Finally, given a choice with a gun pointed to your head. Would you choose to get lasix injected into you, or swallow a glass of water with baking soda and glucose?

[slotdirt]

Depends, can you say for sure what is in the water besides baking soda and glucose?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Depends, can you say for sure what is in the water besides baking soda and glucose?

Based on him getting caught several times for the use of illicit drugs in his horses, and the known masking abilities of the milkshake, I'm going to say there is nothing overtly harmful in that question I posed to Danzig above. Baking soda, glucose and a couple of other innocuous items.

[Indian Charlie]

Yeah, O'Neill is a scumbag. Probably stems from a white trash background is my guess.

I am curious about something though. If milkshaking is so great at masking drugs, how is it that he gets caught? Does he not milkshake the horses that he uses illegal meds in?????????????

That would be pretty dumb on his part, if he is indeed using sodium bicarb to mask drugs.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Yeah, O'Neill is a scumbag. Probably stems from a white trash background is my guess.

I am curious about something though. If milkshaking is so great at masking drugs, how is it that he gets caught? Does he not milkshake the horses that he uses illegal meds in?????????????

That would be pretty dumb on his part, if he is indeed using sodium bicarb to mask drugs.

because it's not an exact science? we all know different horses metabolize differently.
with the amount of times he's been caught, you've got to wonder how often he cheats.
the fact that many trainers have zero positives tells quite a tale as well. btw, if his position is that their testing is flawed, wouldn't it be popping multiple trainers?

as for the milkshaking, since it's currently banned, i feel zero pity for those who use it. unlike lasix, it seems it has a masking quality and enhances performance. using something that's banned is an attempt to give yourself an edge that others won't have, as they won't break the rules. nor should they.

[tector]

I don't think the masking effect is firmly established, and, if it occurs, may only apply to some drugs and not others.

http://bit.ly/JJgpPH

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Hmm.

I'm not sure where I said, or even implied anything about Doug O'Neill being picked on unfairly, but I guess these days if someone disagrees with you you can simply read anything into what the dissenter says.

Again, I was unaware of the masking properties of milkshaking when I posted my question. I'm not sure why that is hard for you to understand.

Another thing, why do trainers use lasix on horses that aren't bleeding? Is it something the horse is deficient in, and will not race well without? Like, kind of having a vitamin or mineral deficiency?

Finally, given a choice with a gun pointed to your head. Would you choose to get lasix injected into you, or swallow a glass of water with baking soda and glucose?

er, my top comment was regarding the portion of the article underneath. it had nothing whatsoever to do with you or the milshake discussion. not sure why you thought it was pointed towards you. i said poor doug and then showed an excerpt from an article about how he says he's being picked on.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

er, my top comment was regarding the portion of the article underneath. it had nothing whatsoever to do with you or the milshake discussion. not sure why you thought it was pointed towards you. i said poor doug and then showed an excerpt from an article about how he says he's being picked on.

My mistake.