Doug O'Neill

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

when milkshaking prevents hemorraging and lung damage, let me know.

When lasix prevents fatigue, and thus injuries, let me know.

Open your mind.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

When lasix prevents fatigue, and thus injuries, let me know.

Open your mind.

so, illegal milkshaking should be ok because it staves off fatigue (wouldn't proper training do the same?) and can mask drugs, but lasix that prevents hemorraging into the lungs and permanent lung damage, and doesn't mask drugs is not. yeah, i'm the one that needs an open mind...

[slotdirt]

I wish there were more stories about Doug O'Neill, milkshakes, Burna Dette, and the 75 other issues he's had with overages and other violations during his career. I don't care if this is the time where we should be all happy and bubbly about the Derby winner. If the trainer's a cheat, the trainer's a cheat.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

so, illegal milkshaking should be ok because it staves off fatigue (wouldn't proper training do the same?) and can mask drugs, but lasix that prevents hemorraging into the lungs and permanent lung damage, and doesn't mask drugs is not. yeah, i'm the one that needs an open mind...

When I posted initially asking about milkshakes, I was not aware of the alleged masking uses. I thought that was pretty clear in my subsequent posts.

There has been considerable evidence that Lasix has been used to mask drugs, despite what our medical experts like to tell us.

Also, I would think reducing muscle fatigue is no small thing, especially since it's likely to have a reduction on injuries that cause fatalities. Sodium Bicarbonate has no harmful side effects either, something that cannot be said for any drug that is currently manufactured.

I'm sure you believe though that Lasix is totally safe, has no side effects, is never used to mask other drugs and is the only option to reduce bleeding.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

When I posted initially asking about milkshakes, I was not aware of the alleged masking uses. I thought that was pretty clear in my subsequent posts.

There has been considerable evidence that Lasix has been used to mask drugs, despite what our medical experts like to tell us.
Also, I would think reducing muscle fatigue is no small thing, especially since it's likely to have a reduction on injuries that cause fatalities. Sodium Bicarbonate has no harmful side effects either, something that cannot be said for any drug that is currently manufactured.

I'm sure you believe though that Lasix is totally safe, has no side effects, is never used to mask other drugs and is the only option to reduce bleeding.

everything i've seen says the contrary, except for what a few contrarians who aren't experts think. not know, think. and from what i've read, milkshaking masks. but then, it's probably the same experts you feel aren't experts who are saying that.

[Danzig]

yeah, poor doug o'neill.....people just trying to tear him down for no reason.


"O'Neill's week, on the other hand, was mostly uneventful until stories of his run-ins with racing officials on the milkshaking charges - his third in California and fourth in a career that has spanned 25 years - began making the rounds. O'Neill isn't the first trainer in the Triple Crown chase to have to answer questions about possible performance-enhancing - both Rick Dutrow, who won the 2008 Derby and Preakness and Jeff Mullins, who trained the 2009 morning-line favorite, got asked plenty of those - and he won't be the last. He understands scrutiny is part of the bargain.

Asked whether winning the Derby was validation for his career, which began taking off in 2005 yet remained confined largely to the West Coast, O'Neill answered evenly: ''I've never thought of it that way.''

''All those guys - the Bafferts, the (Nick) Zitos and (D. Wayne) Lukas - they've all battled their negative press days. You win the big one and people kind of want to go after you,'' he said. ''It has validated, to our team, that if we get a top 2-year-old we can turn him into a Derby winner. Hopefully it's the first of a few.''


shut up meg.

[pweizer]

The NY Times has now weighed in:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/11/sp...nted=1&_r=1&hp

The key quote:

Nationally, thoroughbred horses break down or show signs of injury at a rate of 5.1 per thousand starts, according to The Times’s analysis of more than 150,000 races over the past three years. In more than 2,300 starts, horses trained by O’Neill show a breakdown or injury frequency more than double that rate, at 12.0 per thousand starts.


“It’s a horrible statistic to be associated with,” O’Neill said.


In comparison, horses in the care of Motion — one of the trainers without a single drug violation and who will race Went the Day Well in the Preakness Stakes next Saturday — have started nearly 1,900 races and broken down or showed signs of injury in just 0.5 per thousand starts.

Paul

[Danzig]

oh, i missed this little gem in the yahoo article first time skimming it:


" the he-said, they-said dispute won't be resolved either way until after the Belmont closes out the Triple Crown season on the second Saturday in June"


he said they said??? seriously?! one of the reasons why they do need to take a long look at illegal drugs and how they're handled in this sport. the horses had a positive test-that's far more than he said they said.

absolutely ridiculous.


and thanks for the above post pweizer. eye-opening for sure. truly, that article exposes what is REALLY wrong with the sport. not race day medication, but race day cheaters. many trainers never get a positive, he's had several. and now he's in the limelight, and it's all coming out. just like with assman and dutrow. plenty of clean trainers to be had, but some owners want that win no matter how they get it, and hire people who will get it for them. this is the type of press we don't need. people joke about matz, where's his negatives? or graham motion with animal kingdom?

[tector]

Originally Posted by pweizer

The NY Times has now weighed in:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/11/sp...nted=1&_r=1&hp

The key quote:

Nationally, thoroughbred horses break down or show signs of injury at a rate of 5.1 per thousand starts, according to The Times’s analysis of more than 150,000 races over the past three years. In more than 2,300 starts, horses trained by O’Neill show a breakdown or injury frequency more than double that rate, at 12.0 per thousand starts.


“It’s a horrible statistic to be associated with,” O’Neill said.


In comparison, horses in the care of Motion — one of the trainers without a single drug violation and who will race Went the Day Well in the Preakness Stakes next Saturday — have started nearly 1,900 races and broken down or showed signs of injury in just 0.5 per thousand starts.

Paul

If these numbers are true, they are pretty damning.

I would also note that the Times article actually missed a significant angle--while they talked about milkshaking, they did not raise the drug-masking effect.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

yeah, poor doug o'neill.....people just trying to tear him down for no reason.


"O'Neill's week, on the other hand, was mostly uneventful until stories of his run-ins with racing officials on the milkshaking charges - his third in California and fourth in a career that has spanned 25 years - began making the rounds. O'Neill isn't the first trainer in the Triple Crown chase to have to answer questions about possible performance-enhancing - both Rick Dutrow, who won the 2008 Derby and Preakness and Jeff Mullins, who trained the 2009 morning-line favorite, got asked plenty of those - and he won't be the last. He understands scrutiny is part of the bargain.

Asked whether winning the Derby was validation for his career, which began taking off in 2005 yet remained confined largely to the West Coast, O'Neill answered evenly: ''I've never thought of it that way.''

''All those guys - the Bafferts, the (Nick) Zitos and (D. Wayne) Lukas - they've all battled their negative press days. You win the big one and people kind of want to go after you,'' he said. ''It has validated, to our team, that if we get a top 2-year-old we can turn him into a Derby winner. Hopefully it's the first of a few.''


shut up meg.

Hmm.

I'm not sure where I said, or even implied anything about Doug O'Neill being picked on unfairly, but I guess these days if someone disagrees with you you can simply read anything into what the dissenter says.

Again, I was unaware of the masking properties of milkshaking when I posted my question. I'm not sure why that is hard for you to understand.

Another thing, why do trainers use lasix on horses that aren't bleeding? Is it something the horse is deficient in, and will not race well without? Like, kind of having a vitamin or mineral deficiency?

Finally, given a choice with a gun pointed to your head. Would you choose to get lasix injected into you, or swallow a glass of water with baking soda and glucose?

[slotdirt]

Depends, can you say for sure what is in the water besides baking soda and glucose?

[Indian Charlie]

Yeah, O'Neill is a scumbag. Probably stems from a white trash background is my guess.

I am curious about something though. If milkshaking is so great at masking drugs, how is it that he gets caught? Does he not milkshake the horses that he uses illegal meds in?????????????

That would be pretty dumb on his part, if he is indeed using sodium bicarb to mask drugs.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Hmm.

I'm not sure where I said, or even implied anything about Doug O'Neill being picked on unfairly, but I guess these days if someone disagrees with you you can simply read anything into what the dissenter says.

Again, I was unaware of the masking properties of milkshaking when I posted my question. I'm not sure why that is hard for you to understand.

Another thing, why do trainers use lasix on horses that aren't bleeding? Is it something the horse is deficient in, and will not race well without? Like, kind of having a vitamin or mineral deficiency?

Finally, given a choice with a gun pointed to your head. Would you choose to get lasix injected into you, or swallow a glass of water with baking soda and glucose?

er, my top comment was regarding the portion of the article underneath. it had nothing whatsoever to do with you or the milshake discussion. not sure why you thought it was pointed towards you. i said poor doug and then showed an excerpt from an article about how he says he's being picked on.