Havre De Grace Retired

[trackrat59]

Originally Posted by Riot

That's a shame. I'll miss her running. The vet report shows how one tiny, little ligament can end a career. Considering the mare wasn't lame, glad they caught it right away.

Wonder what he'll take for her?

I can't imagine selling her.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by trackrat59

Now There's An Article Saying She's For Sale

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ce-is-for-sale

What's the over/under on whether the Japanese get her? Given how early we lost Saint Liam, I'd be sad to see her go abroad.

I've gone through a few stallions trying to think who she might go to. Well, more than a few, but I was incredibly bored. I know Bernardini comes to a lot of people's minds these days when a top mare gets retired, but he'd give her foal a C+ nick. Physically, they might match up, I don't know, but I'm not sure I'd jump to him without looking at some other options. That said, I'm not sure he's a real horse. Looks more like a piece of art. Anyway, just from my initial poking around with her pedigree, I'd guess a Northern Dancer line would cross well, particularly sons of Danzig with moderate inbreeding. If you gotta put Raise a Native up top, maybe see if you can get ND up there too. Strictly RAN sire lines don't seem to work as well, but I've been skimming so it's possible I just didn't notice some brilliant pairing.

Medaglia D'Oro might be the way to go with an A++ nick if you're looking for mostly an outcross with just 4x5 Northern Dancer. Lemon Drop Kid also gives an A++ with tons of inbreeding but it also gives you a Rasmussen factor via Missy Baba. From a pure nicking standpoint, it's a shame Dynaformer's done (even though he didn't take maiden mares anyway) because that gives you an A++. Hard Spun, War Front, and War Chant are A++, tied with the highest variant I've found of 10.37. Hard Spun and War Front have moderate inbreeding compared to War Chant. Big Brown is another A++ but has more inbreeding and 4x4x5 ND.

In other "I have way too much time on my hands cuz the weather outside is godawful" news: Discreet Cat gets you an A. Street Cry a B+. Tiznow, Henrythenavigator, and Unbridled's Song are a C. Tapit, Giant's Causeway, Smart Strike, Curlin, English Channel, and Forestry give you a D. I don't have a way to nick her with Galileo but might be worth a shot as he's Sadler's Wells line like MDO. If anybody's got a way to do that for free, I'd be curious to know what that gives ya.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by trackrat59

I can't imagine selling her.

i can imagine it...very well actually! she'd buy several good ones.

[Riot]

Wish Americain was at stud.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

That's a shame. I'll miss her running. The vet report shows how one tiny, little ligament can end a career. Considering the mare wasn't lame, glad they caught it right away.

The vet report noted she was lame.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The vet report noted she was lame.

1 out of 5 isn't visibly lame, is it?

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Riot

Wish Americain was at stud.

Will he be soon though?

I know he's entered at Randwick this weekend but then David Hayes said he won't be going to Singapore for the SIA Cup next month...

Not sure why.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

...because it's fun.

It adds another dimension, makes racing more user-friendly.

Racing needs bettors but it also needs fans and the people in between.

Enthusiasm.

I think it's a good thing, Kingie.

I know you know what some people here don't and that is that the fans DO play, that they DO bet, that they're the ones trying to bring more people in and get people excited... not the guys who - when they do actually go to the track - claim their spot inside, spread out the form, their laptop, whatever else and spend the day by themselves in a crowded place.

Yeah but they bet so little that it doesn't even register. Personally, I think it's a bad thing because it tends to get fans more intimately involved with the horses and creates a very unrational relationship between the horse and the fan. Look at the stuff those weirdos were saying on the Zenyatta website. Those people were crazy. People start looking at the horses as their friends and there becomes this emotional attachment that's unhealthy because then they forget that these are fragile properties and when one gets injured, as will always happen in this game, they start going to extremes with wanting to change rules and adopting measures, etc, that aren't realistic to what the sport is. This is a violent sport. Injuries happen. Horses break down and die. It happens. Havre de Grace isn't anyone's personal friend on here. If she's sold to a sheikh from Dubai or to some Japanese interests, so what. She is Porter's property, not ours. And she's replaceable. All of them are. Havre de Grace will be forgotten by year's end. If not sooner.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

1 out of 5 isn't visibly lame, is it?

Please, just admit you overlooked the first part of the report and let's move on.

If you're too proud to put it in writing, a consistently observable head nod will be taken as a "yes" instead.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Yeah but they bet so little that it doesn't even register.

Kingie I have learned more from you than from any other person on any forum period and you know it BUT I'm not used to seeing you make assumptions like this and if it were anyone else would ask (with pissy tone and all ) when is the last time you were even at the track?

I do understand what your saying as far as the rest of it but all in all I see it (the fan friendly thing) as more positive than negative.

Respectfully, of course.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Please, just admit you overlooked the first part of the report and let's move on.

If you're too proud to put it in writing, a consistently observable head nod will be taken as a "yes" instead.

What nonsense. 1/5 isn't visibly lame. If you didn't know it before, you do now. You learned something. Possibly.

Kudos to a good barn for putting their hands on the horses daily and finding this. Some lower barns miss this type of thing.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Kingie I have learned more from you than from any other person on any forum period and you know it BUT I'm not used to seeing you make assumptions like this and if it were anyone else would ask (with pissy tone and all ) when is the last time you were even at the track?

I do understand what your saying as far as the rest of it but all in all I see it (the fan friendly thing) as more positive than negative.

Respectfully, of course.

I don't think it's an assumption. I'm sure that 95% of the fans that Zenyatta attracted weren't bettors, mostly because they weren't old enough to bet. Even the ones that did, I doubt they were adding serious money to the pools.

As for the last time I've been to the track, it's been awhile. These days, you don't have to go to the track to gamble. Now, ask me how much I've wagered over the past year and I'll tell you that it's much lower than it used to be but still what I consider a significant amount.

[Riot]

People have been fans of race horses since Man O' War and Seabiscuit. Good grief, they used to send Seabiscuit beer I don't see anything wrong with it at all.

Good grief, people get sappy and somewhat ridiculous about the Decorah eagles nest came, and kitties on the internet. Yes, some people anthropomorphize. If "the realities" of animal husbandry intrudes, so much the better for them to become educated and learn the realities around race horses. The open medical details published about Barbaro, I'm sure, kept alot of heat off the racing industry by the ignorant and PETA types. The average person learned how sophisticated and caring treatment of the race horse can be. I want "the average person" who is only superficially aware of horse racing to be on the industry's side, and not listening to PETA tell them what racing is.

So if they have a Facebook page with a famous horse snarfing the bubbles in it's bath and looking disgustingly cute, I don't care.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

What nonsense. 1/5 isn't visibly lame. If you didn't know it before, you do now. You learned something. Possibly.

Hey, I only pointed out that the report said Havre de Grace was "lame". Your words were "the mare was not lame". Are we to believe you, or Dr. L.R. Bramlage (you know, the one who actually examined her) on this one?

Nevertheless, I'll take the bait:

Not "visibly" lame? What sort of "lame" is it?

What's the definition of lameness? An alteration in a horse's gait. How is this recognized if not by sight? Perhaps by taste? Smell?

Anyways, enough beating around the bush. Your precious AAEP defines a grade 1 lameness as "difficult to observe; not consistently apparent". It does not say it is imperceptible. Never mind that the report also notes that the horse was greater than grade 1 when trotted on a circle to the right. Don't you think that was that deduced visually?

It's this distortion of facts when pressed that makes you lose credibility on here. Just because you have a piece of paper that others here don't, doesn't mean you can pull the wool over their eyes. You might have a PhD or a degree in veterinary medicine, but the only thing you tend to throw around here is a lot of BS.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Hey, I only pointed out that the report said Havre de Grace was "lame". Your words were "the mare was not lame". Are we to believe you, or Dr. L.R. Bramlage (you know, the one who actually examined her) on this one?

Nevertheless, I'll take the bait:

Not "visibly" lame? What sort of "lame" is it?

What's the definition of lameness? An alteration in a horse's gait. How is this recognized if not by sight? Perhaps by taste? Smell?

Anyways, enough beating around the bush. Your precious AAEP defines a grade 1 lameness as "difficult to observe; not consistently apparent". It does not say it is imperceptible. Never mind that the report also notes that the horse was greater than grade 1 when trotted on a circle to the right. Don't you think that was that deduced visually?

It's this distortion of facts when pressed that makes you lose credibility on here. Just because you have a piece of paper that others here don't, doesn't mean you can pull the wool over their eyes. You might have a PhD or a degree in veterinary medicine, but the only thing you tend to throw around here is a lot of BS.

Good lord, you're beyond absurd. You're well into self-embarrassment territory. Your attempt to snark at me has only revealed how ignorant you are of horses and lameness.

If you don't know about what the definitions of lameness are, perhaps you shouldn't arrogantly correct others who do?

There is no head nod - although I'm glad you know at least that lameness can have a head nod. We call that "junior vet student lame" - so lame that a 3rd year vet student - or an internet expert like yourself - could see it.

That happens when a lameness is graded 4 or above.

There is no "limping" at Grade 1, 2 or 3 lamenesses.

If you would like to speculate on how we professionals diagnose those low grade, non-limping lamenesses (yes, with flexion tests and circling and everything else) I'll be happy to show you sometime if you are ever in Lexington. Yes, it involves knowing more than just recognizing a limp.

And yes, we veterinarians use a specific lameness scale, of 0 - 5, with absolutely defined meanings, so when I read a report from another veterinarian - like Dr. Bramlage's report - I know exactly what he saw.

Unlike yourself, who is most obviously clueless.

My comment giving kudos to the barn, for finding a problem in a mare that was not visibly limping, and getting it diagnosed right away, stands.

You look like a fool declaring this mare "lame" and talking about a head nod with a grade of 1/5 and 1.5 flexion/circle. Why don't you apologize for being such a rude jerk about something you obviously know nothing about?

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Look at the stuff those weirdos were saying on the Zenyatta website. Those people were crazy.

Were?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

Good lord, you're beyond absurd. You're well into self-embarrassment territory. Your attempt to snark at me has only revealed how ignorant you are of horses and lameness.

If you don't know about what the definitions of lameness are, perhaps you shouldn't arrogantly correct others who do?

There is no head nod - although I'm glad you know at least that lameness can have a head nod. We call that "junior vet student lame" - so lame that a 3rd year vet student - or an internet expert like yourself - could see it.

That happens when a lameness is graded 4 or above.

There is no "limping" at Grade 1, 2 or 3 lamenesses.

If you would like to speculate on how we professionals diagnose those low grade, non-limping lamenesses (yes, with flexion tests and circling and everything else) I'll be happy to show you sometime if you are ever in Lexington. Yes, it involves knowing more than just recognizing a limp.

And yes, we veterinarians use a specific lameness scale, of 0 - 5, with absolutely defined meanings, so when I read a report from another veterinarian - like Dr. Bramlage's report - I know exactly what he saw.

Unlike yourself, who is most obviously clueless.

My comment giving kudos to the barn, for finding a problem in a mare that was not visibly limping, and getting it diagnosed right away, stands.

You look like a fool declaring this mare "lame" and talking about a head nod with a grade of 1/5 and 1.5 flexion/circle. Why don't you apologize for being such a rude jerk about something you obviously know nothing about?

Do you realize that almost everyone on this forum, if not all people on here, think you are insane?

You should try rereading a thread that you post heavily in, say, maybe six months later and see some of the stuff you come up with.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Do you realize that almost everyone on this forum, if not all people on here, think you are insane?

You mean, except for the people on this forum that laugh at the predictable clique of idiots and self-acting tough guys who do nothing more than stroll through the threads going after other posters they don't like?

More insane than the predictable posters who drone on with unbelievable ignorance about lasix, and lameness in horses?

Or the normal people who like learning about horse things?

We're so glad you're here to patrol the threads

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Good lord, you're beyond absurd. You're well into self-embarrassment territory. Your attempt to snark at me has only revealed how ignorant you are of horses and lameness.

Is this your version of Stuart Smalley's Daily Affirmations?

There is no head nod - although I'm glad you know at least that lameness can have a head nod. We call that "junior vet student lame" - so lame that a 3rd year vet student - or an internet expert like yourself - could see it.

But excuse you, as you digress, since I never mentioned a head nod in reference to Havre De Grace.

That happens when a lameness is graded 4 or above.

Who cares? The examining veterinarian noted a grade 1-1.5 lameness on his report.

There is no "limping" at Grade 1, 2 or 3 lamenesses.

I know that now. The horse smells bad and tastes funny.

If you would like to speculate on how we professionals diagnose those low grade, non-limping lamenesses (yes, with flexion tests and circling and everything else) I'll be happy to show you sometime if you are ever in Lexington. Yes, it involves knowing more than just recognizing a limp.

How are you gonna "show" me? It's not a visual thing. Don't worry, I'll stock up on some palate cleansers in preparation.

And yes, we veterinarians use a specific lameness scale, of 0 - 5, with absolutely defined meanings, so when I read a report from another veterinarian - like Dr. Bramlage's report - I know exactly what he saw.

But Dr. Bramlage said the mare was lame. You said she was not. Which is it?

You look like a fool declaring this mare "lame"...

I wonder what Dr. Bramlage looks like then...

Why don't you apologize for being such a rude jerk about something you obviously know nothing about?

Sure, as soon as you apologize to Dr. Bramlage for calling him a fool.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

You mean, except for the people on this forum that laugh at the predictable clique of idiots and self-acting tough guys who do nothing more than stroll through the threads going after other posters they don't like?

More insane than the predictable posters who drone on with unbelievable ignorance about lasix, and lameness in horses?

Or the normal people who like learning about horse things?

We're so glad you're here to patrol the threads

You and your beloved emoticons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhrC3UlI5cQ

The relevant part is from about the 1 minute 10 second part to about a minute and a half.