Joel Stein: "Now I get it"

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

2. The educated gamblers, particularly poker players, that are way more savvy and knowledgeable, understand that the public perception is in no way remotely accurate and close to the general rule. They know that there is no way the sport could survive, thus are not scared off by it's perception.

What sends them running for the hills is the fact that roughly 20-25% of every wager goes to the house.

If your goal is to convince a new generation of intelligent gamblers to adopt this sport as a pastime, takeout has to be addressed, and not by 1-2% - anyone with half a brain will look for better odds elsewhere .

Conversely the uneducated player willing to accept the takeout is much happier buying a lotto ticket or punching a video slot machine than taking the time to handicap much less learn how to handicap.

I think the two traits needed in a person to cultivate them into a player are an appreciation of numbers and the belief (valid or not) at being smarter than the average bear. In a 'player's' mind the horses are more like cards and the race like the flop, turn and river. Once a player becomes a fan, the horses become more like athletes and the race becomes less like a deal. While horse racing overly focuses on recruiting new fans it neglects recruiting players.

A player doesn't need his face painted or to see clowns on stilts. He needs instruction and an incentive to learn. Instead of the paint and clowns give him a beer or coke (with a correct selection of course). It's the give a man a fish v. teaching him how to fish story.....

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Huh? What does this even mean?

I was responding to Steve's foray which us what you responded to. All good.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

What he describes is what they've been trying to market as racings appeal for the last several years.

In the glory years of the sport, it was said "there is little of the true spirit of sport and good feeling among people who attend the races. It is all envy, jealousy, cynicism, hatred, disrespect for authority --- even the humor is sardonic."

And in those same glory years...horse racing dominated pool halls in every city.

Pittsburgh Phil had amassed a fortune in his early 20's -- A.) without ever having watched a horse race before in his life and B.) by betting on horses through the bookies that operated in Pittsburgh's Pool halls.

He did it simply by keeping records of horses names, as well as the winners running time and their margin of victory, thus allowing him to create something resembling a homespun result chart.

If you look to the time period when horse racing was as big as any sport in the entire country (1880s through mid 1920s) -- it wasn't popular because it was some social event, held at beautiful venues. Not in the least.

If "getting" horse racing means accepting it as a social event, where people wear hats, sip on cocktails, watch celebrities athlete make bets, and chat with each other for 30 minutes in between races ... I sure as hell don't get it.

When you bring up Pittsburgh Phil and all the money he won betting horses, what were the betting options back then? Was it just win betting?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

When you bring up Pittsburgh Phil and all the money he won betting horses, what were the betting options back then? Was it just win betting?

Win, Place, Show. Prop betting. Some exotics were offered. If you could afford to pay the racetrack the commissions, you could operate as a bookmaker on track grounds.

Pittsburgh Phil wasn't the only one making a whole lot of money betting horses. He was just the most sensational because of his background and level of success.

He gets brought up though, because he grew up poor, working in a factory for a $5 a week salary, and died at age 42 worth $3,250,000 (or over $85 million adjusted for inflation) -- all that money profit from betting thoroughbreds. Along the way, papers like the New York Times made him a celebrity and once, even compared him to J. P. Morgan ... who was sort of the Bill Gates and Warren Buffet of that time.

He was a marketing force for the sport. He was his days answer to "Go Baby Go" and he was his days answer to "have a cocktail, socialize, and watch celebrity athletes bet on horses"

It wasn't like he was the only guy winning. However, because of his background and his level of success, he kept all the dopey marketing people with their stupid ideas away from horse racing.

Poker can at least market people that are household names: like Doyle Brunson, Phil Ivey, Phil Hellmuth, etc. etc. etc.

You know what horse racing should market? It's suits and marketing people. They want to make the sport all about themselves and their ideas of what might spur interest from people like themselves...all while the core customer has a reputation of pure degenerates playing a suckers game that no one can beat.

Seriously, the marketing people and the suits in horse racing are truly the 8th wonder of the world.

[Duvalier]

How do you go about marketing that, what is the answer as far as a marketing campaign that will work? There are obviously some very bright and creative people around here...Steve who is one of the best ambassadors of racing with a wide ranging media audience comes from a marketing background. You guys have to have connections as far as marketing goes with your newly released Timeformus.

Maybe people can propose ways to market the sport here in this thread...kind of just throw ideas out there. Personally I think what Kenny McPeek is doing with Horse Races Now is a fantastic way to reach people in this day and age.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

How do you go about marketing that, what is the answer as far as a marketing campaign that will work?

Easy.

Lower takeout, add betting exchanges and expand on them in an innovative fashion.

End of story. Anything else is badly getting in the way of progress.

Other than the horrible reputation of its core customers brought about by draconian takeout rates... Horse Racing has zero problems now, that it didn't have at least as bad or whole lot worse when it was in it's prime.

[randallscott35]

The Betfair like options would do wonders. Still waiting.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

The Betfair like options would do wonders. Still waiting.

It would create way too many useful new racing fans.

People who would actually bet...and bet constantly...day in and day out.

That's not what we need. What we need is 'the powers that be' to try to attract their idea of useful customers, by finding clever ways to tell everyone how 'cool' horse racing is.

Yes -- if we can only convince enough of these entitled college grads, like ourselves, that our sport is cool -- it will create so many new fans.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It would create way too many useful new racing fans.

People who would actually bet...and bet constantly...day in and day out.

That's not what we need. What we need is 'the powers that be' to try to attract their idea of useful customers, by telling everyone how 'cool' horse racing is.

Yes -- if we can only convince enough of these entitled college grads, like ourselves, that our sport is cool -- it will create so many new fans.

It has to be killed before it can come back to life. Just keep telling yourself that.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Easy.

Lower takeout, add betting exchanges and expand on them in an innovative fashion.

End of story. Anything else is badly getting in the way of progress.

Other than the horrible reputation of its core customers brought about by draconian takeout rates... Horse Racing has zero problems now, that it didn't have at least as bad or whole lot worse when it was in it's prime.

But that's not marketing. That's changing the way racing is run...marketers cannot do what you're suggesting.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It would create way too many useful new racing fans.

People who would actually bet...and bet constantly...day in and day out.

You're absolutely right with everything you've said...but how do you go about getting these things implemented?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

You're absolutely right with everything you've said...but how do you go about getting these things implemented?

Easy.

Get the marketing people and the suits to work solely to that end.

What both entities have been doing has killed growth.

Ever have a crazy evangelical or nutty Mormon knock on your door and try to convince you how great their religion is?

That's the marketing wing of horse racing. That's ABR and the bus with the horse head costume.

The suits don't even care about takeout rates. At best, they seem to think rebating and award programs is enough. They're pathetically indecisive on exchange wagering.

[Rudeboyelvis]

IMO, while a unique idea, exchange wagering is a gimmick that would never return it's costs to implement. Hell, they can't even close wagering accurately and consistently now, how in the world are they going to put something like this into place, much less assure that there will not be pre/post race(market) manipulation?

Takeout is and always has been the main reason that intelligent, seasoned gamblers stay away. Give a sports bettor a fighting chance and they won't be so stoked to take +100/-110 on a 3 hour event again when they can see exponential returns every 30 minutes.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Easy.

Get the marketing people and the suits to work solely to that end.

What both entities have been doing has killed growth.

Ever have a crazy evangelical or nutty Mormon knock on your door and try to convince you how great their religion is?

That's the marketing wing of horse racing. That's ABR and the bus with the horse head costume.

The suits don't even care about takeout rates. At best, they seem to think rebating and award programs is enough. They're pathetically indecisive on exchange wagering.

Christopher Kay should implement all the things you've suggested...the top man at racing's premier circuit.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

IMO, while a unique idea, exchange wagering is a gimmick that would never return it's costs to implement.

Don't agree at all.

Places like Turf Paradise and Presque Isle Downs routinely match over $50,000 a race on BetFair --- and that's with US bettors strictly shutout.

Exchange betting would be far more popular here than it has been in Europe...and it's done quite well in Europe.

Exchange betting in Europe...horse racing also has to compete with virtually every sport known to man. In America, horse racing could have it all to itself.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Christopher Kay should implement all the things you've suggested...the top man at racing's premier circuit.

Why would he, or any of them, care what I think?

They'd probably say I have ulterior motives for wanting takeout rates that aren't draconian and wanting betting exchanges.

They have their college degrees, some of them even have business experience. None of it ever seems to translate into common sense on the Horse Racing end.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Why would he, or any of them, care what I think?

They'd probably say I have ulterior motives for wanting takeout rates that aren't draconian and wanting betting exchanges.

They have their college degrees, some of them even have business experience. None of it ever seems to translate into common sense on the Horse Racing end.

He's looking to make a profit right? Seems a lot better way to do it than his hiking admission and parking fees. He did mention at one point pushing for exchange wagering. So why wait...do it now.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I was responding to Steve's foray which us what you responded to. All good.

Okay we're good.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

The Betfair like options would do wonders. Still waiting.

And Jersey approved betting exchanges a few years back and they are now serviced by TVG which is owned by Betfair. They have the platform so what the heck is the hold up?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by jms62

And Jersey approved betting exchanges a few years back and they are now serviced by TVG which is owned by Betfair. They have the platform so what the heck is the hold up?

Isnt it the horseman who are skeptical?