Penn National arrests

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Mistimed races is different than taking money to purposely mislead and transmit false or completely wrong information...but I get the point.

Has anyone NOT heard of horses being given incorrect times in works at some point at some track? The difference between Friday morning before this announcement and now is that it is being identified as a federal crime. Ponder that.

While intent surely matters under the PA statues given and a broad interpretation virtually anything done and any faulty information could be considered fraud as long as there is simulcasting and wagering. What about odds manipulation where people cancel big tickets that they never intended on keeping to mess with the odds? Past posting? What about reporting or lack of 1st time geldings? Is that not similar to missing or faulty works? I know I'm stretching here but before yesterday it would be a stretch to believe that someone giving a horse an extra 2cc of lasix could be facing 20 years in jail and a 250k fine.

I'm just wondering what precedent these cases could cause. In the case of Webb and Rogers the Feds obviously are going to use their admissions against them and a legal question would be can your testimony in a hearing to a state commission be used against you? Could they start pulling case files from any trainer that has had a positive test and use that information against them and retroactively charge them?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While intent surely matters under the PA statues given and a broad interpretation virtually anything done and any faulty information could be considered fraud as long as there is simulcasting and wagering. What about odds manipulation where people cancel big tickets that they never intended on keeping to mess with the odds? Past posting? What about reporting or lack of 1st time geldings? Is that not similar to missing or faulty works? I know I'm stretching here but before yesterday it would be a stretch to believe that someone giving a horse an extra 2cc of lasix could be facing 20 years in jail and a 250k fine.

I'm just wondering what precedent these cases could cause. In the case of Webb and Rogers the Feds obviously are going to use their admissions against them and a legal question would be can your testimony in a hearing to a state commission be used against you? Could they start pulling case files from any trainer that has had a positive test and use that information against them and retroactively charge them?

Throw them all in jail then, people will straighten up right quick I would imagine.

For a crime doesnt there have to be evidence of willfully committing the crime? I dont think they arresting a simple mistake, which obviously this clocker did not.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Throw them all in jail then, people will straighten up right quick I would imagine.

For a crime doesnt there have to be evidence of willfully committing the crime? I dont think they arresting a simple mistake, which obviously this clocker did not.

I agree. They also need to ban all horses currently trained by these trainers for 1 year. No Transfer, no running under an assistant. That way such great for the game owners that currently run their horses with suspected juicers will also put pressure on trainers to not cheat. This is good for the game long term. This will level the playing field for legit trainers such as Cannon

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by jms62

I agree. They also need to ban all horses currently trained by these trainers for 1 year. No Transfer, no running under an assistant. That way such great for the game owners that currently run their horses with suspected juicers will also put pressure on trainers to not cheat. This is good for the game long term. This will level the playing field for legit trainers such as Cannon

And the guidebook for who is 'suspect' and who isn't is found where?

As a proviso, be aware that many of those walking around wearing white hats take edges as readily as those in the black hats. But certainly the Court of the Internet will make it clear for everyone who the cheaters are who is pure as driven snow.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Kasept

And the guidebook for who is 'suspect' and who isn't is found where?

As a proviso, be aware that many of those walking around wearing white hats take edges as readily as those in the black hats. But certainly the Court of the Internet will make it clear for everyone who the cheaters are who is pure as driven snow.

Is a guidebook necessary? All owners would pressure their trainers to run clean if they face not being able to run their horses's for a year. I own a 20 pct of a couple and will willingly play by those rules.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jms62

I agree. They also need to ban all horses currently trained by these trainers for 1 year. No Transfer, no running under an assistant. That way such great for the game owners that currently run their horses with suspected juicers will also put pressure on trainers to not cheat. This is good for the game long term. This will level the playing field for legit trainers such as Cannon

I am all for a level playing field but criminalizing offenses out of the blue is troublesome. I want the game to make sense but by the same token I find it hard to believe that Sam Webb whose 10% cut of his horses earnings this year is 21000 or Trish Rogers who was caught giving 2 cc of lasix are running criminal conspiracies. If they are only going to go after the actual person giving the drug/med then nothing much will change. You think Juice trainers are hitting the horses themselves? I play by the rules but because most states dont tell you the rules and the PA statues are so wide open for judicial interpretation you dont even know. It is pretty troubling that the adjuncts my horse ran on in MD last month would be consider a federal crime in PA this month.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I am all for a level playing field but criminalizing offenses out of the blue is troublesome. I want the game to make sense but by the same token I find it hard to believe that Sam Webb whose 10% cut of his horses earnings this year is 21000 or Trish Rogers who was caught giving 2 cc of lasix are running criminal conspiracies. If they are only going to go after the actual person giving the drug/med then nothing much will change. You think Juice trainers are hitting the horses themselves? I play by the rules but because most states dont tell you the rules and the PA statues are so wide open for judicial interpretation you dont even know. It is pretty troubling that the adjuncts my horse ran on in MD last month would be consider a federal crime in PA this month.

I understand were you are coming from. Maybe this is the right idea but the wrong case.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jms62

I understand were you are coming from. Maybe this is the right idea but the wrong case.

Im not a legal expert by any means but based on what we know Webb/Rogers look like cherry picked cases where the PA commission already provided the legwork. If you brought in guys who are taking millions out of the game Federal involvement would seem to be a little more fitting. It is like the Feds getting involved with PED's in professional sports and busting 3 minor league hockey players and ignoring the NFL.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Throw them all in jail then, people will straighten up right quick I would imagine.

For a crime doesnt there have to be evidence of willfully committing the crime? I dont think they arresting a simple mistake, which obviously this clocker did not.

I find it hard to believe that a clocker putting faulty works in the database would be considered willfully committing a criminal act. Virtually every "late work" announced at every track would be crime. That isnt condoning misinformation but I think it is a real stretch to make these criminal acts. Hell every year at Derby time we get Derby horses clocked with different times by different clockers.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I find it hard to believe that a clocker putting faulty works in the database would be considered willfully committing a criminal act. Virtually every "late work" announced at every track would be crime. That isnt condoning misinformation but I think it is a real stretch to make these criminal acts. Hell every year at Derby time we get Derby horses clocked with different times by different clockers.

Huh? You realize some of his misinformation was works that didn't actually occur AT ALL....Like I ran the marathon this year in 2hrs and 25 minutes...except I was on my couch.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Huh? You realize some of his misinformation was works that didn't actually occur AT ALL....Like I ran the marathon this year in 2hrs and 25 minutes...except I was on my couch.

Again Im not saying that this is ok but it is hardly a felony.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Again Im not saying that this is ok but it is hardly a felony.

Gotta start higher so they can plead down. That's the game.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Gotta start higher so they can plead down. That's the game.

Yeah and squeeze him for info probably

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I find it hard to believe that a clocker putting faulty works in the database would be considered willfully committing a criminal act. Virtually every "late work" announced at every track would be crime. That isnt condoning misinformation but I think it is a real stretch to make these criminal acts. Hell every year at Derby time we get Derby horses clocked with different times by different clockers.

there's faulty times, and there's taking money to falsify works, alter times, enter horses as having worked when they didn't step foot on the track. he didn't make a mistake, he's been charged with taking money to falsify info. big difference.

How is posting a false or misleading workout time a crime? Are these times monitored by a government agency? Granted its wrong but the worst case, he should be fired and never be able to work that position anywhere.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

How is posting a false or misleading workout time a crime? Are these times monitored by a government agency? Granted its wrong but the worst case, he should be fired and never be able to work that position anywhere.

this isn't just a case of a mistake. he took money for multiple fake times, fake workouts where the horse didn't even touch the track. so now it's bribery, etc. he's a track official, and repeatedly altered info that bettors use to decide wagers.

people complain all the time about bad workouts, mistimes in both works and races. this guy did it on purpose for financial gain, and now he's being defended? that doesn't make sense.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Danzig

this isn't just a case of a mistake. he took money for multiple fake times, fake workouts where the horse didn't even touch the track. so now it's bribery, etc. he's a track official, and repeatedly altered info that bettors use to decide wagers.

people complain all the time about bad workouts, mistimes in both works and races. this guy did it on purpose for financial gain, and now he's being defended? that doesn't make sense.

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there's faulty times, and there's taking money to falsify works, alter times, enter horses as having worked when they didn't step foot on the track. he didn't make a mistake, he's been charged with taking money to falsify info. big difference.

We are probably talking like $50 for a work.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We are probably talking like $50 for a work.

hey, i didn't say the guy was a genius.

how many works? is taking a couple bribes ok, but ten isn't? or is 99 ok, but not 100? it's like the joke where a guy asks a woman to have sex with him for a hundred bucks.
a hundred? no way.
he offers five hundred. no
he offers a thousand. she says no.
he offers ten thousand, she says ok.
they have sex, he hands her $500. she says 'what do you think i am?'
he says that's been established, now we're just talking price.

the guy has no ethics, and took bribes to alter info. is one or two ok? if he only made a couple hundred, no biggie? would i believe him if he said it was only so money? no. he's crooked (allegedly of course).

again, there have been countless conversations here and elsewhere about issues plaguing this sport. now a case is filed. i don't feel bad for any of those charged. if it alters others' behavior, even better.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Danzig

hey, i didn't say the guy was a genius.

how many works? is taking a couple bribes ok, but ten isn't? or is 99 ok, but not 100? it's like the joke where a guy asks a woman to have sex with him for a hundred bucks.
a hundred? no way.
he offers five hundred. no
he offers a thousand. she says no.
he offers ten thousand, she says ok.
they have sex, he hands her $500. she says 'what do you think i am?'
he says that's been established, now we're just talking price.

the guy has no ethics, and took bribes to alter info. is one or two ok? if he only made a couple hundred, no biggie? would i believe him if he said it was only so money? no. he's crooked (allegedly of course).

again, there have been countless conversations here and elsewhere about issues plaguing this sport. now a case is filed. i don't feel bad for any of those charged. if it alters others' behavior, even better.

So what about all the prior misleading workouts being published around other racetracks? The stakes horse supposedly working at Monmouth when he was stabled at Aqueduct and working under a different name? Was that really fraud? How about all the late workouts announced at the track prior to a race, because the horse didn't have a published work in the required say 30-60 days...who is guilty of fraud there? Who allowed the work to be ok'd and the horse to run?