Penn National arrests

[Duvalier]

So what about other fairly recent attempts to administer medications or foreign substances into horses outside the prescribed times that took place in New York and Tampa and other tracks throughout the country. Are the feds or state agencies going to go look into those incidents for fraud? Horses working at a different track under an assumed name while being stabled at a racetrack in another completely different state prior to running in a stakes race...pretty much seems kind of the same as a clocker making up fake times.


How about the people caught redhanded milkshaking horses? Are indictments coming for them for committing fraud?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

So what about other fairly recent attempts to administer medications or foreign substances into horses outside the prescribed times that took place in New York and Tampa and other tracks throughout the country. Are the feds or state agencies going to go look into those incidents for fraud? Horses working at a different track under an assumed name while being stabled at a racetrack in another completely different state prior to running in a stakes race...pretty much seems kind of the same as a clocker making up fake times.


How about the people caught redhanded milkshaking horses? Are indictments coming for them for committing fraud?

Lets see if they can actually get anything accomplished with this one first!

[freddymo]

Innocent until proven guilty folks this is Waterville Pa. not Antwerp

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Innocent until proven guilty folks this is Waterville Pa. not Antwerp

C'mon Fred...a little extra lasix and getting indicted, facing 50 years and a $500,000 fine? Why not go after the real cheaters to make a statement?

[tanner12oz]

When did this story break? Cuz someone mentioned something about ongoing investigations in pa on another forum yesterday. Kinda ironic

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

So what about other fairly recent attempts to administer medications or foreign substances into horses outside the prescribed times that took place in New York and Tampa and other tracks throughout the country. Are the feds or state agencies going to go look into those incidents for fraud? Horses working at a different track under an assumed name while being stabled at a racetrack in another completely different state prior to running in a stakes race...pretty much seems kind of the same as a clocker making up fake times.


How about the people caught redhanded milkshaking horses? Are indictments coming for them for committing fraud?

perhaps.
feds got involved because of interstate crime. so, conceivably, any trainer busted at a track could face federal charges due to wagering being interstate commerce.

[randallscott35]

Wells trained Rapid Redux to 22 in a row. McGwire would be proud.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Danzig

perhaps.
feds got involved because of interstate crime. so, conceivably, any trainer busted at a track could face federal charges due to wagering being interstate commerce.

This is the big deal, and I think it's being slightly overlooked initially. Get caught attempting to do something, or actually doing it...and the indictment reads that this is, essentially, wire fraud.

The feds are arguing that the drugging or attempted drugging is an attempt to change the outcome of the race - as those races are transmitted via simulcast (wire) for consumption across state lines.

I'm guessing a place like Rillito Park, which doesn't distribute their signal, is free and clear from this.

My initial reaction to this, after reading the indictments, is that this could be just the first in a monumentally long line of "easy pickings." Whether/how it sticks is a different story, but it feels like this is just the start of a much MUCH bigger deal that is definitely not going to be limited to Penn National.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

This is the big deal, and I think it's being slightly overlooked initially. Get caught attempting to do something, or actually doing it...and the indictment reads that this is, essentially, wire fraud.

The feds are arguing that the drugging or attempted drugging is an attempt to change the outcome of the race - as those races are transmitted via simulcast (wire) for consumption across state lines.

I'm guessing a place like Rillito Park, which doesn't distribute their signal, is free and clear from this.

My initial reaction to this, after reading the indictments, is that this could be just the first in a monumentally long line of "easy pickings." Whether/how it sticks is a different story, but it feels like this is just the start of a much MUCH bigger deal that is definitely not going to be limited to Penn National.

The end of racing in the country could be coming if they are allowed to interpret the law as any violation is considered wire fraud. In this case the three individuals were either caught, admitted to or were accused of personally attempting to administering the drug, not a third party like a vet. In Rogers case she was arrested despite her husband being the trainer of record for that horse.

In the clockers case if giving faulty information across "state lines" is considered wire fraud then what about all the mistimed races across the country?

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The end of racing in the country could be coming if they are allowed to interpret the law as any violation is considered wire fraud. In this case the three individuals were either caught, admitted to or were accused of personally attempting to administering the drug, not a third party like a vet. In Rogers case she was arrested despite her husband being the trainer of record for that horse.

In the clockers case if giving faulty information across "state lines" is considered wire fraud then what about all the mistimed races across the country?

Mistimed races is different than taking money to purposely mislead and transmit false or completely wrong information...but I get the point.

Has anyone NOT heard of horses being given incorrect times in works at some point at some track? The difference between Friday morning before this announcement and now is that it is being identified as a federal crime. Ponder that.

[randallscott35]

I will believe that Pat when they take down one of the big boys from a major track. Not nobodies at Penn National.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Mistimed races is different than taking money to purposely mislead and transmit false or completely wrong information...but I get the point.

Has anyone NOT heard of horses being given incorrect times in works at some point at some track? The difference between Friday morning before this announcement and now is that it is being identified as a federal crime. Ponder that.

While intent surely matters under the PA statues given and a broad interpretation virtually anything done and any faulty information could be considered fraud as long as there is simulcasting and wagering. What about odds manipulation where people cancel big tickets that they never intended on keeping to mess with the odds? Past posting? What about reporting or lack of 1st time geldings? Is that not similar to missing or faulty works? I know I'm stretching here but before yesterday it would be a stretch to believe that someone giving a horse an extra 2cc of lasix could be facing 20 years in jail and a 250k fine.

I'm just wondering what precedent these cases could cause. In the case of Webb and Rogers the Feds obviously are going to use their admissions against them and a legal question would be can your testimony in a hearing to a state commission be used against you? Could they start pulling case files from any trainer that has had a positive test and use that information against them and retroactively charge them?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While intent surely matters under the PA statues given and a broad interpretation virtually anything done and any faulty information could be considered fraud as long as there is simulcasting and wagering. What about odds manipulation where people cancel big tickets that they never intended on keeping to mess with the odds? Past posting? What about reporting or lack of 1st time geldings? Is that not similar to missing or faulty works? I know I'm stretching here but before yesterday it would be a stretch to believe that someone giving a horse an extra 2cc of lasix could be facing 20 years in jail and a 250k fine.

I'm just wondering what precedent these cases could cause. In the case of Webb and Rogers the Feds obviously are going to use their admissions against them and a legal question would be can your testimony in a hearing to a state commission be used against you? Could they start pulling case files from any trainer that has had a positive test and use that information against them and retroactively charge them?

Throw them all in jail then, people will straighten up right quick I would imagine.

For a crime doesnt there have to be evidence of willfully committing the crime? I dont think they arresting a simple mistake, which obviously this clocker did not.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The end of racing in the country could be coming if they are allowed to interpret the law as any violation is considered wire fraud. In this case the three individuals were either caught, admitted to or were accused of personally attempting to administering the drug, not a third party like a vet. In Rogers case she was arrested despite her husband being the trainer of record for that horse.

In the clockers case if giving faulty information across "state lines" is considered wire fraud then what about all the mistimed races across the country?

big difference between a mistake and intentionally altering times and being involved in a criminal conspiracy. question is, why did the feds go this route? who got them involved? did someone say the track or the state wasn't doing enough?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

big difference between a mistake and intentionally altering times and being involved in a criminal conspiracy. question is, why did the feds go this route? who got them involved? did someone say the track or the state wasn't doing enough?

I dont believe there is a big difference if the timing company/tracks have been alerted that the accuracy of the times are wrong. If you are knowingly producing and offering faulty times to people using the information to bet over state lines then surely you could be held liable no? People from this board have been talking about this subject for awhile and always expressed frustration that the tracks would rarely even respond when alerted to the issue.

Supposedly the Feds were tipped off about misdeeds at Penn natl right around the Gill issue. I doubt they really care much about racing or the track but an eager Federal prosecutor saw an easy way to pad his record. Busting semi-broke trainers who dont have lawyers on retainers on Federal fraud charges is like a walkover.

[randallscott35]

I somehow sense Chuck that you think this is a witch hunt. Surely this is about more than 2cc's of lasix...clean trainers have nothing to worry about.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont believe there is a big difference if the timing company/tracks have been alerted that the accuracy of the times are wrong. If you are knowingly producing and offering faulty times to people using the information to bet over state lines then surely you could be held liable no? People from this board have been talking about this subject for awhile and always expressed frustration that the tracks would rarely even respond when alerted to the issue.

Supposedly the Feds were tipped off about misdeeds at Penn natl right around the Gill issue. I doubt they really care much about racing or the track but an eager Federal prosecutor saw an easy way to pad his record. Busting semi-broke trainers who dont have lawyers on retainers on Federal fraud charges is like a walkover.

i would have to think that this will be a real 'come to jesus' moment for many involved in racing.
typically an entity will try to find a really good case as a test case, to try to set precedent. i would have to think any trainer or any track personnel is taking a long, hard look at how they function, and whether changes should be made.
does anyone really want the feds involved? probably not. but these subjects have been hashed out repeatedly, with no real changes made, because no one has had the power to change things.

i have to think someone made this call to the feds to get this going, because no one else either had the ability or the wherewithall to make a profound change.

and of course the case is cherry picked, chuck. that's how this stuff is done. they won't waste their time on a case that might not go their way. somebody has to be the poster child.