You make the call.. Classic or Mile for Wise Dan?

[SteveHaskin]

Why run John Henry in the Santa Anita Handicap twice and Jockey Club Gold Cup when he was strictly a grass horse? Result: Only horse to win the Big Cap twice.

Why keep trying to win the Washington D.C. International vs. the world's best turf horses with Kelso year after year when he was a dirt horse? Result: New American record for 1 1/2 miles and a fifth consecutvie Horse of the Year title.

Why run Forego in the 7f Vosburgh and Carter against brilliant sprinters like Mr. Prospector, Lonetree, and Timeless Moment when his best races were between 1 1/4 miles and 2 miles? Result: Only horse in history to win the 2-mile JC Gold Cup and be named champion sprinter the same year.

All through history, horses, not just these three great geldings, have stepped out of their comfort zone to strive for greatness. It wasnt about maintaining an unbeaten streak or the money. It was the sporting thing to do. Who remembers John Henry's, Forego's, and Kelso's defeats, except when those defeats actually boosted their reputation (ie Seattle Slew in the Gold Cup, Zenyatta in the Classic, Groupie Doll in last year's Cigar Mile)

Why run Arcangues in the BC Classic when he was strictly a grass horse? Result: Highest payoff in Breeders' Cup history.

Why stretch Ghostzapper out to 1 1/4 miles in the BC Classic when he had been two turns only once in his career and seven of his nine career starts were in sprints? Result: A new stakes record in the Classic and a Horse of the Year title.

Why run Raven's Pass and Henry the Navigator on a synthetic surface for the first time going 1 1/4 miles against the mighty Curlin when they were strictly grass milers? Result: an unprecedented European 1-2 finish.

Wise Dan is a truly great miler on the grass and there is nothing wrong with having that distinction. If they are content with that and to keep his unbeaten streak going, that's fine. It's their prerogative. They obviously don't have any aspirations of elevating him to the category of the all-time great geldings mentioned above. Again, that's their decision. There is something to be said for winning. Mort Fink said he was so confident before last year's BC Mile, because he knew the horse would do whatever he had to to win. For some owners, they wouldn't want to be that confident race after race, knowing their horse was going to win. Some would like to experience the thrill that doubt brings and savor a victory all the more, because it wasn't a foregone conclusion. Each owner is different.

And to those who say Wise Dan has no shot in the Classic, what is that based on? He's a grade I winner at 1 1/8 miles on dirt and didnt have the best of trips in his head defeat in a grade I at 1 1/8 miles. The all-time greats do things other than what they do best. That's what makes them all-time greats. Sometimes you have to take chances to attain that.

[SteveHaskin]

I also want to add about Ghostzapper, you couldn't push his half-brother City Zip past 6 furlongs.

I only mention all this because Wise Dan has so much potential greatness in him. If he didn't, I wouldn't give a hoot where they ran him. Today's game is very different than it used to be. For a fossil like myself, it's time to adapt to the new way of thinking.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by SteveHaskin

I also want to add about Ghostzapper, you couldn't push his half-brother City Zip past 6 furlongs.

I only mention all this because Wise Dan has so much potential greatness in him. If he didn't, I wouldn't give a hoot where they ran him. Today's game is very different than it used to be. For a fossil like myself, it's time to adapt to the new way of thinking.

Of course City Zip didn't have Frankel and Frankel's vet....His progeny seem to be a little shy of winning on the dirt(Ghostzapper).

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by SteveHaskin

I also want to add about Ghostzapper, you couldn't push his half-brother City Zip past 6 furlongs.

I only mention all this because Wise Dan has so much potential greatness in him. If he didn't, I wouldn't give a hoot where they ran him. Today's game is very different than it used to be. For a fossil like myself, it's time to adapt to the new way of thinking.

Great comments, Steve, and thanks for sharing the perspective. I've been super critical of the Wise Dan campaign mostly because I really believe he could be one of the special ones who can display his versatility on all surfaces and at longer distances, and it frustrates me seeing him limited to the mile grass races.

You hate having to wonder "what could've been" with so many horses whose careers DID end prematurely. Here's one whose career hasn't ended, and is a gelding, and the grit he showed in his Clark win, the dominance in the Ben Ali (with its 117 BSF), and you think he could be so much more...it stinks having to wonder "what could be" when it seems this question won't be answered.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by SteveHaskin

Why run John Henry in the Santa Anita Handicap twice and Jockey Club Gold Cup when he was strictly a grass horse? Result: Only horse to win the Big Cap twice.

Why keep trying to win the Washington D.C. International vs. the world's best turf horses with Kelso year after year when he was a dirt horse? Result: New American record for 1 1/2 miles and a fifth consecutvie Horse of the Year title.

Why run Forego in the 7f Vosburgh and Carter against brilliant sprinters like Mr. Prospector, Lonetree, and Timeless Moment when his best races were between 1 1/4 miles and 2 miles? Result: Only horse in history to win the 2-mile JC Gold Cup and be named champion sprinter the same year.

All through history, horses, not just these three great geldings, have stepped out of their comfort zone to strive for greatness. It wasnt about maintaining an unbeaten streak or the money. It was the sporting thing to do. Who remembers John Henry's, Forego's, and Kelso's defeats, except when those defeats actually boosted their reputation (ie Seattle Slew in the Gold Cup, Zenyatta in the Classic, Groupie Doll in last year's Cigar Mile)

Why run Arcangues in the BC Classic when he was strictly a grass horse? Result: Highest payoff in Breeders' Cup history.

Why stretch Ghostzapper out to 1 1/4 miles in the BC Classic when he had been two turns only once in his career and seven of his nine career starts were in sprints? Result: A new stakes record in the Classic and a Horse of the Year title.

Why run Raven's Pass and Henry the Navigator on a synthetic surface for the first time going 1 1/4 miles against the mighty Curlin when they were strictly grass milers? Result: an unprecedented European 1-2 finish.

Wise Dan is a truly great miler on the grass and there is nothing wrong with having that distinction. If they are content with that and to keep his unbeaten streak going, that's fine. It's their prerogative. They obviously don't have any aspirations of elevating him to the category of the all-time great geldings mentioned above. Again, that's their decision. There is something to be said for winning. Mort Fink said he was so confident before last year's BC Mile, because he knew the horse would do whatever he had to to win. For some owners, they wouldn't want to be that confident race after race, knowing their horse was going to win. Some would like to experience the thrill that doubt brings and savor a victory all the more, because it wasn't a foregone conclusion. Each owner is different.

And to those who say Wise Dan has no shot in the Classic, what is that based on? He's a grade I winner at 1 1/8 miles on dirt and didnt have the best of trips in his head defeat in a grade I at 1 1/8 miles. The all-time greats do things other than what they do best. That's what makes them all-time greats. Sometimes you have to take chances to attain that.

Amen, Steve, and speaking of Curlin, don't forget his 1 3/8 on grass in the Man O' War. Sure he lost but he did well in 2nd and beat Better Talk Now which ain't nothin'. I still think he could've handled other tries on turf.

Originally Posted by SteveHaskin

I also want to add about Ghostzapper, you couldn't push his half-brother City Zip past 6 furlongs.

I only mention all this because Wise Dan has so much potential greatness in him. If he didn't, I wouldn't give a hoot where they ran him. Today's game is very different than it used to be. For a fossil like myself, it's time to adapt to the new way of thinking.

You're not a fossil, Steve. You're a treasure. I feel the same way about Wise Dan as Zenyatta and Azeri (pre-Lukas). If they're capable of doing more in their campaigns than they're doing, I'm just gonna feel let down if they play it safe. I still think Rachel belonged in the 2010 Stephen Foster. Her campaign decisions that year still leave me scratching my head.

[-BT-]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Great turf miler, sure. He wasn't beating POE at 9f derby day. Shame he's hurt now. Look at his last dirt race, he lost to Ron The Greek, who is OK, but no one mistakes for great.

[quote=cakes44;939844]Yep, pretty sure POE was scratched because they knew he was going to blow the doors off Wise Dan that day and they just felt bad

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Thanks for making things up.

"making things up"

you just anointed a horse who scratched the day of, a winner, over reigning horse of the year.

racing people are a fickle bunch, you don't run past 3 people gripe. You only run against your own sex, people gripe. You go to the shed at the first sign of an injury, people gripe. You only race at specific distance, people gripe.

the horse has won on multiple surfaces, at multiple distance, AT multiple tracks.
I feel sorry for those of you who knock a horse like this, saying he's not a true great b/c he's not/never been in the BC Classic, i assume you're the same people who gripe when a horse is retired.

these connections are essentially doing us a favor by continuing to run this horse, WHEREVER that may be, people should stop the hating and start the embracing

-bt-

[Merlinsky]

I heard over the weekend that they wanted to go 3 more years with Wise Dan which means he'd retire after racing at age 9. If they're trying to keep him undefeated this year, is it a stretch to think they've got designs on the win streak? He's at 8 so far (would've been 12 if he hadn't lost the Stephen Foster) and if he finishes this year undefeated followed by next season, it'll be within reach. Keeping him mostly on grass could just be an effort maintain him long term, but the longer he plays it safe and stays healthy, the better the chances are that he gets the streak. Obviously challenging the horse isn't the priority, and it's not stud value. This would be another accomplishment for them to think about. I find it hard to believe they aren't thinking about that if they're considering his long term career and when they'd like to stop. You talk about what you'd like to do with the horse. An all-time win streak record in N.A. done at the top level? Another impressive laurel. (Not as much as Cigar and Citation's to me, but hey.)