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  #1  
Old 09-30-2012, 08:03 PM
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Cannon Shell Cannon Shell is offline
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Originally Posted by cmorioles View Post
Before I read the rest of this diatribe, where did I insult you and make it personal before you called me a troll? Did saying I couldn't discuss drugs with a trainer really considered an insult?

I notice you ignored the PA thing. At least for once you realized you were off base.
I make several points and you act as though you are above discussing the topic with me because I am a trainer? How is that not insulting?

You ignored virtually every point that I made and I didnt call you a troll, I said you come off like one. You are the one who is concerned with semantics. As for the paceadvantage thing who really cares? It was an off the cuff attempt at humor.

As for being off base that's nonsense. If I made some silly remark about speed figures or something that you have intimate knowledge of I find it hard to believe that you wouldnt be quick to comment or correct me. Seriously what did I say about the topic that you found to be incorrect?
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  #2  
Old 09-30-2012, 08:13 PM
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I make several points and you act as though you are above discussing the topic with me because I am a trainer? How is that not insulting?

You ignored virtually every point that I made and I didnt call you a troll, I said you come off like one. You are the one who is concerned with semantics. As for the paceadvantage thing who really cares? It was an off the cuff attempt at humor.

As for being off base that's nonsense. If I made some silly remark about speed figures or something that you have intimate knowledge of I find it hard to believe that you wouldnt be quick to comment or correct me. Seriously what did I say about the topic that you found to be incorrect?
This all started because I mentioned about using clenbuterol every day without knowing for sure it would be beneficial. If you don't see anything wrong with that, there just wasn't much to discuss because we'll never agree.

How is giving clenbuterol to a kid that has asthma remotely close to giving it to a horse because it might be beneficial, and doing it every day? If you want to argue that point, you'll need to do it with those that wrote the report. I don't think they are on any side of the drug issue. They just presented the facts.

Really, this sums up the whole thing:

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How can I defend giving clenbuterol? Seriously? You have zero knowledge of the medication or even racehorses in general but you are going to question me?
You know nothing about me, or what I know, but on the other hand think you know everything about every subject. I know you are the tsar of Derby Trail. From now on I'll bow down to your greatness.
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  #3  
Old 09-30-2012, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cmorioles View Post
This all started because I mentioned about using clenbuterol every day without knowing for sure it would be beneficial. If you don't see anything wrong with that, there just wasn't much to discuss because we'll never agree.

How is giving clenbuterol to a kid that has asthma remotely close to giving it to a horse because it might be beneficial, and doing it every day? If you want to argue that point, you'll need to do it with those that wrote the report. I don't think they are on any side of the drug issue. They just presented the facts.

Really, this sums up the whole thing:



You know nothing about me, or what I know, but on the other hand think you know everything about every subject. I know you are the tsar of Derby Trail. From now on I'll bow down to your greatness.
This is an incredible copout.

Your statement that I'm wrong and you are right about the use of clenbuterol on a daily basis drips with irony considering your last paragraph.
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  #4  
Old 09-30-2012, 09:12 PM
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This is an incredible copout.

Your statement that I'm wrong and you are right about the use of clenbuterol on a daily basis drips with irony considering your last paragraph.
I'm not the one that said clenbuterol should not be used every day. You obviously don't do it anymore, so it seems you actually agree.

"Investigators became concerned about clenbuterol when they found that some horses were getting it almost continually from their private veterinarians. Clenbuterol is approved only for the short-term treatment of respiratory disease, and is very effective. But when used in large amounts over a lengthy period, it builds muscle and can also cause health problems or death. "
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:20 PM
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I'm not the one that said clenbuterol should not be used every day. You obviously don't do it anymore, so it seems you actually agree.

"Investigators became concerned about clenbuterol when they found that some horses were getting it almost continually from their private veterinarians. Clenbuterol is approved only for the short-term treatment of respiratory disease, and is very effective. But when used in large amounts over a lengthy period, it builds muscle and can also cause health problems or death. "
No actually you seemed to infer that I was wrong for using it without knowing for sure if it would be beneficial.
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  #6  
Old 09-30-2012, 09:30 PM
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No actually you seemed to infer that I was wrong for using it without knowing for sure if it would be beneficial.
Personally I wouldn't do that, particularly for three or four months. Your owners told you it was OK I assume. They paid for it, not me. As an owner, I'd be pissed to find out I paid for the every day administration of a drug that does what the report purports long term. I'd be a bad owner though. I would ask too many questions.
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  #7  
Old 09-30-2012, 09:50 PM
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Personally I wouldn't do that, particularly for three or four months. Your owners told you it was OK I assume. They paid for it, not me. As an owner, I'd be pissed to find out I paid for the every day administration of a drug that does what the report purports long term. I'd be a bad owner though. I would ask too many questions.
Let's just say that that particular owner was far more concerned with winning races than he is with pretty much anything else.

I have no problem with owners asking questions. Educated people are far better decision makers than people who are informed via Joe Drape.

The entire tone of that recent NYT piece that all these poor owners are being duped into paying huge vet bills by trainers is hyperbole. The truth is that we arent paid by most people to train their horse, we are paid to win races hence the main method of selecting trainers is via win %. You wont find that in any reports or studies. But when a large majority of owners continue to use a single qualification to choose trainers (win %) they are more or less endorsing whatever methods tht trainer employs. I find it hard to believe that people are stunned when they get huge vet bills from leading trainers.

Personally I prefer to train for people who have a clue as to what is going on and care about their horses. I could have twice as many horses as I have now pretty easily but too many people dont pay and what can be worse for your horse than having a trainer cutting corners because they dont have enough money to do things right?
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cmorioles View Post
This all started because I mentioned about using clenbuterol every day without knowing for sure it would be beneficial.
That statement above doesn't have much basis in truth, yet you state it, as if it is.

Your constant insult of those that know more than you is beyond tiresome. You should listen to Chuck. Believe me, you'd learn something about horses and drugs.
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  #9  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:27 PM
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That statement above doesn't have much basis in truth, yet you state it, as if it is.

Your constant insult of those that know more than you is beyond tiresome. You should listen to Chuck. Believe me, you'd learn something about horses and drugs.
I will say that you are the only person here that questioned the report. The consensus, even among those skeptical like Steve Crist, is that the study was well done and the report unbiased. I mean, even Chuck said he stopped doing it because it didn't do anything positive.
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  #10  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cmorioles View Post
I will say that you are the only person here that questioned the report. The consensus, even among those skeptical like Steve Crist, is that the study was well done and the report unbiased. I mean, even Chuck said he stopped doing it because it didn't do anything positive.
I did not question the report. Your statement was generalized, and not an accurate reflection of what we know about clenbuterol. That was my point.

You have demonstrated a repeated inability to read sentences, and glean an accurate meaning, without veering off into assumption. For example, your not understanding how your obvious insult to all horse trainers could possibly offend Chuck.

Just. Stop.
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  #11  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Riot View Post
I did not question the report. Your statement was generalized, and not an accurate reflection of what we know about clenbuterol. That was my point.

You have demonstrated a repeated inability to read sentences, and glean an accurate meaning, without veering off into assumption. For example, your not understanding how your obvious insult to all horse trainers could possibly offend Chuck.

Just. Stop.
How can a supposed vet possibly condone giving clenbuterol to a horse every day without even knowing if there was a benefit? And according to the report there isn't, though some negatives were cited. Oh wait, to pad your income, right?
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  #12  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cmorioles View Post
How can a supposed vet possibly condone giving clenbuterol to a horse every day without even knowing if there was a benefit?
I am not a "supposed" vet, I am a licensed, practicing veterinarian - but your insult attempt at my bonafides to question you is noted. As was your dismissal of Chuck as "can't talk to horse trainers".

I did not question the report. I did not say I condone giving clenbuterol to a horse every day. Don't lie about what I said.

What I said is that your statement about "not even knowing if there was a benefit " is superficial, shallow, generalized, and doesn't reflect what more knowledgable people than you do know about clenbuterol.
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  #13  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:56 PM
freddymo freddymo is offline
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Originally Posted by cmorioles View Post
How can a supposed vet possibly condone giving clenbuterol to a horse every day without even knowing if there was a benefit? And according to the report there isn't, though some negatives were cited. Oh wait, to pad your income, right?
Ask Todd Pletcher if he is willing to train your regally bred 500k 2 year old BUT he can ONLY use Clenbuterol IF the horse ehibits certain criteria for its use. LOL NEXT
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  #14  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:48 PM
freddymo freddymo is offline
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Originally Posted by Riot View Post
I did not question the report. Your statement was generalized, and not an accurate reflection of what we know about clenbuterol. That was my point.

You have demonstrated a repeated inability to read sentences, and glean an accurate meaning, without veering off into assumption. For example, your not understanding how your obvious insult to all horse trainers could possibly offend Chuck.

Just. Stop.
I tell you what I know about Clenbuterol, the biggest cheats in the game use it daily and without question it is used to enhance horses ability to run faster. Now they all bleed and they all suffer from hay and dirt in their lungs.
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  #15  
Old 10-01-2012, 01:00 PM
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I tell you what I know about Clenbuterol, the biggest cheats in the game use it daily and without question it is used to enhance horses ability to run faster. Now they all bleed and they all suffer from hay and dirt in their lungs.
The biggest cheats in the game do a lot of stuff to horses in an attempt to get them to run faster. As I said, there are a whole lot of gullible people out there, and more than enough old wives tales and enablers to keep the conspiracy loons searching for the next magical miracle bullet.

They are cheats - not rocket scientists.

They are cheats - not good horse trainers.

They are cheats - not medical professionals.

They don't cheat because they are smart.

As Chuck has already pointed out, 95% of drug overages, the ones some of the public gets freaked out about, is due to microscopic overages of daily therapeutic medications in amounts that could never affect performance in a million years. Let's just keep that reality in mind.
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