1973 Preakness (UPDATE: Maryland accepts 1:53.0)

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

Please let me know who the 5 are, that you rank higher, thanks

1. Secretariat
2. Kincsem...always catch hell for this one but check her out!
3. Man O War...despite the fact that I feel he ducked Exterminator.
4. Citation
5. Native Dancer

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

1. Secretariat
2. Kincsem...always catch hell for this one but check her out!
3. Man O War...despite the fact that I feel he ducked Exterminator.
4. Citation
5. Native Dancer

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

If memory serves...somerfrost ranks both of these horses behind Zenyatta.

That's no real slight to them, however, as he ranks Zenyatta ahead of Affirmed as well.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

I have to agree about Secretariat, he was a great horse, but also turned in some poor at three (The Wood, Whitney and Woodward), He did not race at 4, So for me The Bid's complete body of work surpasses Secretariat.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

secretariat has a huge following because of his tc, when he was flat out awesome. i have to say that i rate the bid ahead of him tho. 26/30 in three years time, with no loss the last year imo is far better than 16/21-which isn't even an 'a' average! sec lost 1/4 of his races when you look at it in that light. he had an amazing spring. he was an amazing horse, but i don't think he was the best ever. the bid won more races than secretariat even entered. of course that's no more secretariats fault than man o war not facing exterminator would be mow's fault.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Danzig

secretariat has a huge following because of his tc, when he was flat out awesome. i have to say that i rate the bid ahead of him tho. 26/30 in three years time, with no loss the last year imo is far better than 16/21-which isn't even an 'a' average! sec lost 1/4 of his races when you look at it in that light. he had an amazing spring. he was an amazing horse, but i don't think he was the best ever. the bid won more races than secretariat even entered. of course that's no more secretariats fault than man o war not facing exterminator would be mow's fault.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

secretariat has a huge following because of his tc, when he was flat out awesome. i have to say that i rate the bid ahead of him tho. 26/30 in three years time, with no loss the last year imo is far better than 16/21-which isn't even an 'a' average! sec lost 1/4 of his races when you look at it in that light. he had an amazing spring. he was an amazing horse, but i don't think he was the best ever. the bid won more races than secretariat even entered. of course that's no more secretariats fault than man o war not facing exterminator would be mow's fault.

Didn't mean to imply MOW ducked Exterminator himself, rather his connections did. Like I said the top 9 (imo) can all have a case for them being #1 (after the Bid at #6, I have Ribot, Count Fleet and Sea Bird). Zenyatta's placement was a joke to still folks up and it was successful. I have Eclipse at #10 and that's obviously subjective, St Simon, Kelso, Colin, Seattle Slew, Affirmed and Dr Fagar are next.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Didn't mean to imply MOW ducked Exterminator himself, rather his connections did. Like I said the top 9 (imo) can all have a case for them being #1 (after the Bid at #6, I have Ribot, Count Fleet and Sea Bird). Zenyatta's placement was a joke to still folks up and it was successful. I have Eclipse at #10 and that's obviously subjective, St Simon, Kelso, Colin, Seattle Slew, Affirmed and Dr Fagar are next.

Ducked Exterminator? You've got to be kidding. They invited Exterminator to face Man O' War and Sir Barton in their "match race" but Exterminator's connections didn't want to face those 2 horses at 1 1/4. They wanted a longer race. I believe the ideal distance on their part was something like 1 3/4 even though Exterminator had won the Derby at that distance. Exterminator won the Saratoga Cup 4 times at 1 3/4 if you count that walkover. They ducked MOW, not the other way around.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Ducked Exterminator? You've got to be kidding. They invited Exterminator to face Man O' War and Sir Barton in their "match race" but Exterminator's connections didn't want to face those 2 horses at 1 1/4. They wanted a longer race. I believe the ideal distance on their part was something like 1 3/4 even though Exterminator had won the Derby at that distance. Exterminator won the Saratoga Cup 4 times at 1 3/4 if you count that walkover. They ducked MOW, not the other way around.

good luck merlinsky. i've argued the point before, and gotten nowhere.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

good luck merlinsky. i've argued the point before, and gotten nowhere.

from Wikipedia:
"When Man o' War was three, Kilmer tried for a match race between the two horses. Somehow, Man o' War's owner, Samuel Riddle, although seeming to agree, never managed to have that happen."

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

secretariat has a huge following because of his tc, when he was flat out awesome. i have to say that i rate the bid ahead of him tho. 26/30 in three years time, with no loss the last year imo is far better than 16/21-which isn't even an 'a' average! sec lost 1/4 of his races when you look at it in that light. he had an amazing spring. he was an amazing horse, but i don't think he was the best ever. the bid won more races than secretariat even entered. of course that's no more secretariats fault than man o war not facing exterminator would be mow's fault.

Secretariat had valid 'excuses' in at least two of those losses though and also ran in a great great crop. Not that the Bid's crop sucked by any means, but the 70 foal crop was loaded.

[slotdirt]

Has DrugS posted his Exterminator dissertation yet? That would make for good reading.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has DrugS posted his Exterminator dissertation yet? That would make for good reading.

Man O' War was blown way out of proportion.

He was not nearly as fast as people might think. Old Rosebud looked a little faster as a 2yo and Old Rosebud's Kentucky Derby was much, much faster than any Man O' War race except his Belmont.

Man O' War was by far and away the least tested of all the famous horses. His winning times in the Preakness and Travers were in fact, relatively weak compared to other races on the card. His competition he beat was brutally bad.

It's not MOW's fault that he was born into that crop at a time when horse racing was falling apart here because of diminishing purses and gambling outlawed in some key places -- but his connections campaigned him in an extremely unsportsmanlike fashion and most of his wins proved absolutely nothing.

[Indian Charlie]

All righty Drugs.

Who was better? The undefeated Hungarian Kinscem, or the undefeated German superstar Nordlicht?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Man O' War was blown way out of proportion.

He was not nearly as fast as people might think. Old Rosebud looked a little faster as a 2yo and Old Rosebud's Kentucky Derby was much, much faster than any Man O' War race except his Belmont.

Man O' War was by far and away the least tested of all the famous horses. His winning times in the Preakness and Travers were in fact, relatively weak compared to other races on the card. His competition he beat was brutally bad.

It's not MOW's fault that he was born into that crop at a time when horse racing was falling apart here because of diminishing purses and gambling outlawed in some key places -- but his connections campaigned him in an extremely unsportsmanlike fashion and most of his wins proved absolutely nothing.

it seems to me that the legends book on MOW said his first 6f time (in the travers) was the fastest internal time with the horse setting it still managing to win. it was something to that effect...some of his records stood for decades. he probably belongs somewhere between the deity he's taken to be, and the horse you take him to be. i don't think a horse would remain so highly thought of decades after racing if he was as over-rated as you suggest.

[Indian Charlie]

There were some pretty good European horses over the last 50 years too. People seem to think the best horses only race in the USA.

Horses like Mill Reef, Mumtaz Mahal, Nijinsky, Ribot (already mentioned) have always been interesting reads to me.

Brigadier Gerard was a fascinating horse too. I think he won like 18 of 19.

From his Wiki page:

He entered the season's first colts' classic, the 2,000 Guineas at Newmarket, without a preparatory race. As they lined for the race, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and My Swallow had between them won 18 out of their 19 races.

In one of the most eagerly anticipated races ever, Brigadier Gerard won in devastating fashion by three lengths from Mill Reef and My Swallow. Brigadier Gerard followed that victory with wins in the St. James's Palace Stakes, the Sussex Stakes by five lengths, the Goodwood Mile by ten lengths, the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes by eight lengths, and the Champion Stakes.

At a mile he was unbeatable on anything but very soft ground (he only narrowly won the St James's Palace Stakes on heavy ground). He was kept out of the Epsom Derby by his owners because they were unsure how far he would stay as his pedigree was more that of a miler than a middle distance horse (Mill Reef went on to win the race and was never defeated again). At the end of his three year old season he was undefeated in ten races at distances between five furlongs and a mile and a quarter.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

There were some pretty good European horses over the last 50 years too. People seem to think the best horses only race in the USA.

No one who posts here (including myself) is even remotely qualified to talk about comparing and rating past European stars from the last 50 years.

The courses over there and the way everything is handled makes such speculation hopeless.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

No one who posts here (including myself) is even remotely qualified to talk about comparing and rating past European stars from the last 50 years.

The courses over there and the way everything is handled makes such speculation hopeless.

Ranking Euro horses is tough, no doubt about it...horses like Ribot, Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard, and Mill Reef were indeed special however and deserving (imo) of high rankings. Same with old timers both in US and Euro such as Kincsem, Eclipse, St Simon, Ormonde and Pot 8 O's.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

No one who posts here (including myself) is even remotely qualified to talk about comparing and rating past European stars from the last 50 years.

The courses over there and the way everything is handled makes such speculation hopeless.

While this is true, I have a hard time believing that horses like Lammtarra, Frankel, Sea the Stars, Zarkava, Goldikova, Miesque, and Dancing Brave wouldn't have places up pretty high on such lists.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

I'm not really sure how you can historically rate Kinscem. There seems to be such little to go on, and yeah, it's probable that she is overrated, it is also possible she was just a horse that was ahead of the breed at the time.