1973 Preakness (UPDATE: Maryland accepts 1:53.0)

[Calzone Lord]

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...50&postcount=6

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...50&postcount=6

Thanks, Your knowledge is very impressive, has any other Champion been undefeated from 7 furlongs to 1 1/4 miles? and just curious as to your opinion on where you would rank The Bid with all the greats?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

Thanks, Your knowledge is very impressive, has any other Champion been undefeated from 7 furlongs to 1 1/4 miles? and just curious as to your opinion on where you would rank The Bid with all the greats?

Colin. Man O' War. Personal Ensign, Landaluce. None that had anything close to his body of work.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...65&postcount=1

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Colin. Man O' War. Personal Ensign, Landaluce. None that had anything close to his body of work.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...65&postcount=1

Thanks for the History lesson today, very informative, and interesting, I have to find Native Dancer as a two yr old.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

Thanks for the History lesson today, very informative, and interesting, I have to find Native Dancer as a two yr old.

He was 10-for-10 as a 2-year-old and had fast numbers.




It's really way too difficult to rate the best 2-year-olds of all-time.

Some of the great 2yo's like Secretariat and Spectacular Bid weren't good gate horses early on -- and both of them could be had going real short because of immaturity and bad initial gate habits.

Some of the most sensational 2yo's going 5 furlongs and 6 furlongs had trouble staying a mile or further.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

He was 10-for-10 as a 2-year-old and had fast numbers.




It's really way too difficult to rate the best 2-year-olds of all-time.

Some of the great 2yo's like Secretariat and Spectacular Bid weren't good gate horses early on -- and both of them could be had going real short because of immaturity and bad initial gate habits.

Some of the most sensational 2yo's going 5 furlongs and 6 furlongs had trouble staying a mile or further.

Wow, he was a BEAST. was the Derby his only loss?

[Calzone Lord]

Yes.

Pretty much every single racehorse today has Native Dancer blood in it.

He sired Raise A Native (sire of both Mr. Prospector and Alydar) and he was the dam sire of Northern Dancer.

Discovery was the dam sire of both Native Dancer and Bold Ruler. Needless to say, Discovery is in pretty much every single pedigree of every single current race horse at least once. Ruffian was extremely in-bred to Discovery. He appeared 3 different times in her up-close pedigree.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

He was 10-for-10 as a 2-year-old and had fast numbers.




It's really way too difficult to rate the best 2-year-olds of all-time.

Some of the great 2yo's like Secretariat and Spectacular Bid weren't good gate horses early on -- and both of them could be had going real short because of immaturity and bad initial gate habits.

Some of the most sensational 2yo's going 5 furlongs and 6 furlongs had trouble staying a mile or further.

The American Derby at Was was worth 4x the purse value of the Travers. I've never even heard of 'Was'!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

Thanks, Your knowledge is very impressive, has any other Champion been undefeated from 7 furlongs to 1 1/4 miles? and just curious as to your opinion on where you would rank The Bid with all the greats?

I'm not who you asked but I rank the Bid #6 all time...I know a good argument could be made for an even higher ranking but to me the top 9 are very close.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I'm not who you asked but I rank the Bid #6 all time...I know a good argument could be made for an even higher ranking but to me the top 9 are very close.

Please let me know who the 5 are, that you rank higher, thanks

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

Please let me know who the 5 are, that you rank higher, thanks

1. Secretariat
2. Kincsem...always catch hell for this one but check her out!
3. Man O War...despite the fact that I feel he ducked Exterminator.
4. Citation
5. Native Dancer

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

1. Secretariat
2. Kincsem...always catch hell for this one but check her out!
3. Man O War...despite the fact that I feel he ducked Exterminator.
4. Citation
5. Native Dancer

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

If memory serves...somerfrost ranks both of these horses behind Zenyatta.

That's no real slight to them, however, as he ranks Zenyatta ahead of Affirmed as well.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

I have to agree about Secretariat, he was a great horse, but also turned in some poor at three (The Wood, Whitney and Woodward), He did not race at 4, So for me The Bid's complete body of work surpasses Secretariat.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

secretariat has a huge following because of his tc, when he was flat out awesome. i have to say that i rate the bid ahead of him tho. 26/30 in three years time, with no loss the last year imo is far better than 16/21-which isn't even an 'a' average! sec lost 1/4 of his races when you look at it in that light. he had an amazing spring. he was an amazing horse, but i don't think he was the best ever. the bid won more races than secretariat even entered. of course that's no more secretariats fault than man o war not facing exterminator would be mow's fault.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

I'm not really sure how you can historically rate Kinscem. There seems to be such little to go on, and yeah, it's probable that she is overrated, it is also possible she was just a horse that was ahead of the breed at the time.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

1. Secretariat
2. Kincsem...always catch hell for this one but check her out!
3. Man O War...despite the fact that I feel he ducked Exterminator.
4. Citation
5. Native Dancer

and there's some who criticize native dancer because he never faced tom fool. not exactly consistent....
and yeah, you catch hell for kincsem for good reason.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and there's some who criticize native dancer because he never faced tom fool. not exactly consistent....
and yeah, you catch hell for kincsem for good reason.

So Cal Cool (for those who remember him) and I are the only two who respect Kincsem...different eras are always subjective (was Ty Cobb better than Pete Rose?).