NYTHA Lasix Primer & Letter to NYS RWB

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

So horses at racing speed, where ventilation is dramatically increased, are not possibly inhaling bacteria, viruses, or other organic or inorganic matter of the requisite size while taking in clods of dirt in a cloud of kickback?

Bacteria, viruses and other organic and inorganic matter are of markedly different sizes, and thus are only capable of reaching certain places within the lungs.

As EIPH is not caused by the presence of bacteria, viruses and other organic and inorganic matter, their presence is not directly contributory.

Lower airway inflammation that affects the integrity of the alveolar-capillary interface and constriction of bronchioles (that can be contributory to EIPH caused by pressure difference) is different from upper airway inflammation, and organic and inorganic matter are rarely, if at all, associated with lower airway inflammation.

Bacteria and viruses can cause infection with subsequent scarring if they are respiratory pathogens and are inhaled, not removed by immunologic and physical defense systems, and set up housekeeping within the lungs. That takes at least 6 hours or longer, thus inhalation during a race is not contributory to EIPH that occurs during that race.

A previous episode of lung infection/pneumonia, if it causes scarring or lung damage, can in the future make the horse more susceptible to dorso-caudal lung lobe problems, however that is not the most common location within the lung of infection/pneumonia.

Medicine: it takes a thorough in-depth knowledge of normal anatomy and physiology before one can start identifying and speculating upon the abnormal.

Do you have a point, or are you just dancing for Freddy?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Lower airway inflammation that affects the integrity of the alveolar-capillary interface and constriction of bronchioles (that can be contributory to EIPH caused by pressure difference) is different from upper airway inflammation, and organic and inorganic matter are rarely, if at all, associated with lower airway inflammation.

Bacteria and viruses can cause infection with subsequent scarring if they are respiratory pathogens and are inhaled, not removed by immunologic and physical defense systems, and set up housekeeping within the lungs. That takes at least 6 hours or longer, thus inhalation during a race is not contributory to EIPH that occurs during that race.

A previous episode of lung infection/pneumonia, if it causes scarring or lung damage, can in the future make the horse more susceptible to dorso-caudal lung lobe problems, however that is not the most common location within the lung of infection/pneumonia.

Medicine: it takes a thorough in-depth knowledge of normal anatomy and physiology before one can start identifying and speculating upon the abnormal.

Do you have a point, or are you just dancing for Freddy?

As expected, you masterfully backpedaled from your earlier absolute that inhalants from racing don't affect EIPH. Antitrust had a good point that perhaps racing on dirt predisposes horses more to bleeding than on natural grass courses. No one said anything about bacteria, et al directly causing EIPH, nor suggested that inhaling kickback immediately led to EIPH in the same race. Only the notion that lower airway inflammation, for which many different microscopic sources found in dust/kickback are responsible, can exacerbate bleeding was offered. Seems like you agree even though your original response read the opposite way.

You're welcome.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

As expected, you masterfully backpedaled from your earlier absolute that inhalants from racing don't affect EIPH.

No, I did not. That you are clearly unable to understand the difference between foreign body/particulate inhalation and inflammation due to COPD/allergy; and what different parts of the airway these processes affect, and what the multiple contributors to EIPH are and are not, is not my fault.

I tried to make the explaination simple. It was clearly not simple enough for you. Try reading it again. I'm sorry you didn't understand it the first time.

I'll try again, like I was speaking to a smart-azz but not-very-bright third grader: kickback on the track = big pieces of stuff = not inhaled deeply enough past trachea and bronchi into bronchioles = doesn't cause inflammation = doesn't even get to physical location where "inflammation" can happen = doesn't cause narrowing of small airways = doesn't cause changes in lung pressure = doesn't cause EIPH

Small particles such as viruses and bacteria: even if they get down into airways = their action not immediate = no they don't cause EIPH at end of race = won't even cause EIPH subsequently as different part of lung than EIPH location most usually = will only affect anyway subsequently if permanent scarring

The above has nothing to do with lower airway inflammation caused by inflammatory mediators (not the actual particulate matter) - it appears your ignorance lays here, in your lack of knowledge about COPD and what "inflammation" is and the pathways that cause it. You obviously mistakenly think it's particulate matter directly into the lungs that causes problems. You are wrong. You are confusing two different things in your ignorance.

Oh, here: I found a little 13-page article reviewing the very basic inflammatory cascade found in allergic lung diseases (its for human but it applies to the equine), so you can learn how that has nothing at all to do with "dust particles in the lungs" as you wrongly think: http://www.cardam.eu/NR/rdonlyres/.....rmediators.pdf

You're welcome. ROFLMAO.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

As expected, you masterfully backpedaled from your earlier absolute that inhalants from racing don't affect EIPH. Antitrust had a good point that perhaps racing on dirt predisposes horses more to bleeding than on natural grass courses. No one said anything about bacteria, et al directly causing EIPH, nor suggested that inhaling kickback immediately led to EIPH in the same race. Only the notion that lower airway inflammation, for which many different microscopic sources found in dust/kickback are responsible, can exacerbate bleeding was offered. Seems like you agree even though your original response read the opposite way.

You're welcome.

Once you read Dr Riot, the failed hack vets, reply below I suspect you will realize you are dealing with a superior talent. You have too understand she has been bounced from some of the worst producing barns in KY. Remember some day in Buenos Aries you could be a star!!!!