Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

no, they use it because they can here. if everyone truly thought it was performance enhancing, than why do i see horses racing here without an 'L' next to their name???

I don't know if every trainer thinks lasix is performance enhancing.

I personally think it is a big mistake to use lasix on a first-time starter. The reason is because there is a small percentage of horses that will actually run worse on lasix. I have no idea what that percentage is. It is probably somewhere between 1-5%. If possible, I would like to run a horse at least once or twice without lasix. That way you can at least see how they run without it as compared to how they run with it.

One of my trainers (a different trainer than the one I was on the phone with) had a horse that had run 3 times without lasix. He had run great every time. He had two wins and then ran 2nd in a stakes race. He then decided to put the horse on lasix for his next race. He figured that lasix helps most horses and it would probably help this horse (even though the horse had never bled). The horse ended up running poorly in his first race with lasix. The trainer never even thought of the possibility that lasix might have been the cause of the dull effort. He was dumbfounded as to why the horse ran so bad. The horse had been training great. He ran him again with lasix and he ran bad again. They went over the horse with a fine-tooth comb and couldn't find anything wrong with him. He came out of the race great and he was training great.

At this point, the trainer started thinking about the possibility that the lasix was the cause of the two bad races. The horse had run great three times in a row without lasix. Then the horse ran poorly two races in a row with lasix. The trainer couldn't come up with any explanation for the horse's two bad races. So he thought there was a small possibility that this horse was one of the few that runs worse with lasix. He took the horse off lasix for his next race and the horse won (it was a stakes race) by 8 lengths.

This is not something that is common. As I said, I don't think anyone knows what percentage of horses that run worse with lasix. It could be as low as 1%. But this trainer is lucky that he ran that horse without lasix those first few races. Otherwise he would have never known that the horse was much better without lasix. That horse ended up being a multiple graded stakes winner. I'll bet you that horse would have never won a stakes race on lasix. That is why I think it is a good idea to run a horse a couple of times without it.

[Riot]

Rupert, to your trainers impressions, there has been contrary scientific measurements regarding lasix. Studies that show horses on lasix don't do as well (dehydration, electrolyte changes). Then one study in the 1990's, looking at actual race horse races run, that showed horses on lasix did better (ran slightly longer, faster) What couldn't be eliminated in the second study was maidens simply learning their job and improving their 2-3-4 starts (as they also were then put on the vet's list for lasix due to evidence of bleeding).

I consider lasix a performance-enabler. Not a performance-enhancer. It helps prevent lung damage. It enables a horse to do the best they can with what they have. Let's use modern sports medicine to help horses, not hurt them. It has nothing to do with doping.

With all the problems horse racing has, that the poobahs of racing are even addressing lasix like this is beyond my comprehension.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't know if every trainer thinks lasix is performance enhancing.

I personally think it is a big mistake to use lasix on a first-time starter. The reason is because there is a small percentage of horses that will actually run worse on lasix. I have no idea what that percentage is. It is probably somewhere between 1-5%. If possible, I would like to run a horse at least once or twice without lasix. That way you can at least see how they run without it as compared to how they run with it.

One of my trainers (a different trainer than the one I was on the phone with) had a horse that had run 3 times without lasix. He had run great every time. He had two wins and then ran 2nd in a stakes race. He then decided to put the horse on lasix for his next race. He figured that lasix helps most horses and it would probably help this horse (even though the horse had never bled). The horse ended up running poorly in his first race with lasix. The trainer never even thought of the possibility that lasix might have been the cause of the dull effort. He was dumbfounded as to why the horse ran so bad. The horse had been training great. He ran him again with lasix and he ran bad again. They went over the horse with a fine-tooth comb and couldn't find anything wrong with him. He came out of the race great and he was training great.

At this point, the trainer started thinking about the possibility that the lasix was the cause of the two bad races. The horse had run great three times in a row without lasix. Then the horse ran poorly two races in a row with lasix. The trainer couldn't come up with any explanation for the horse's two bad races. So he thought there was a small possibility that this horse was one of the few that runs worse with lasix. He took the horse off lasix for his next race and the horse won (it was a stakes race) by 8 lengths.

This is not something that is common. As I said, I don't think anyone knows what percentage of horses that run worse with lasix. It could be as low as 1%. But this trainer is lucky that he ran that horse without lasix those first few races. Otherwise he would have never known that the horse was much better without lasix. That horse ended up being a multiple graded stakes winner. I'll bet you that horse would have never won a stakes race on lasix. That is why I think it is a good idea to run a horse a couple of times without it.

there's more to it than just saying ' a first time starter'. they've been in training, maybe there's already been a bleeding episode? or maybe they just don't want to have to have a problem ever show up? if you can prevent bleeding and lung issues before they become an issue, why wouldn't you?
lasix has become the popular target for some reason, and really isn't the issue where drugs are concerned. the issues are with cheaters, some who are caught countless times, suspended countless times, and are still training. that's the issue, not a legal drug that has legitimate reasons for being used. it is absolutely a red herring in the whole discussion of what needs to be done to fix racing. cheating trainers and the owners who hire them are the issue. rather than all this bs posturing over lasix, where are the hearings and rules for many-times over cheaters? where are the moves for expanded testing, more security?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there's more to it than just saying ' a first time starter'. they've been in training, maybe there's already been a bleeding episode? or maybe they just don't want to have to have a problem ever show up? if you can prevent bleeding and lung issues before they become an issue, why wouldn't you?
lasix has become the popular target for some reason, and really isn't the issue where drugs are concerned. the issues are with cheaters, some who are caught countless times, suspended countless times, and are still training. that's the issue, not a legal drug that has legitimate reasons for being used. it is absolutely a red herring in the whole discussion of what needs to be done to fix racing. cheating trainers and the owners who hire them are the issue. rather than all this bs posturing over lasix, where are the hearings and rules for many-times over cheaters? where are the moves for expanded testing, more security?

If you have a first-time starter that has already bled during training, that is a different story. You asked, "If you can prevent bleeding and lung issues before they become an issue, why wouldn't you?" I answered that in my last post. The reason I wouldn't want to use lasix for the first couple of races (assuming the horse has never bled in a workout), is because I would want to see how the horse runs without it. As I said, there is the rare horse that runs far worse with lasix. How would I know if my horse is one of those rare horses if I never ran him without lasix?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

If you have a first-time starter that has already bled during training, that is a different story. You asked, "If you can prevent bleeding and lung issues before they become an issue, why wouldn't you?" I answered that in my last post. The reason I wouldn't want to use lasix for the first couple of races (assuming the horse has never bled in a workout), is because I would want to see how the horse runs without it. As I said, there is the rare horse that runs far worse with lasix. How would I know if my horse is one of those rare horses if I never ran him without lasix?

thing is, if you wish not to run them on it, you have that choice. however, i don't think it's something that should be banned. i don't buy that it's a performance enhancer or a mask. if it was a masking agent, there sure are a lot of horses that stil pop in post-race testing...and if it is an enhancer, i'd think every horse would use it. that they aren't all on it belies that argument, doesn't it?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

thing is, if you wish not to run them on it, you have that choice. however, i don't think it's something that should be banned. i don't buy that it's a performance enhancer or a mask. if it was a masking agent, there sure are a lot of horses that stil pop in post-race testing...and if it is an enhancer, i'd think every horse would use it. that they aren't all on it belies that argument, doesn't it?

Do all professional athletes juice?

If not, how come? Roids definitely enhance performance.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Do all professional athletes juice?

If not, how come? Roids definitely enhance performance.

don't know, ask them.
what's that got to do with lasix? and of course other legal substances are regulated for race days, that do affect performance. so, the fact that lasix is not regulated, or having a parts per millions rule for race days tells me it's not considered by racing groups as performance-enhancing.