well, did we win?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

"The peace forced on Germany" is an interesting way to put it. Perhaps "They lost" would be a better way to explain why German nationalism led to Hitler and WW2.

I wasn't inferring that you in particular said that Iraq was the greatest tragedy in history but when you look at past "wars" it really is hardly more than a blip on the radar screen.

i say forced on germany because france in particular laid most of the blame for the start of the war on germany, when in fact that's really not true. the weeks leading up to ww1 were a colossal cluster**** of epic proportions. had austria just gone into serbia on her own, things probably wouldn't have escalated as they did. but there's a saying that an unjust peace is better than a just war, so they ultimately agreed to the terms.
then there's the fact that an armistice was declared; it wasn't a win-more of a temporary ceasefire while they tried to work up a plan to end the war. germany almost went back to fighting again, rather than accept france's offer. wilson did his best to keep france from imposing such harsh terms. the harshness is what lead to everything that germany went thru after, and what lead to hitler's rise, and eventually to ww2 in europe.

and i agree completely-when one looks at iraq in a historical vein, it's nothing. however, it's impact on this country in its short history is huge.

on another note about ww1, if anyone is ever in kansas city, mo, the ww1 museum is located there. excellent displays, lots of info. 34000 miles of trenches on the western front alone.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i say forced on germany because france in particular laid most of the blame for the start of the war on germany, when in fact that's really not true. the weeks leading up to ww1 were a colossal cluster**** of epic proportions. had austria just gone into serbia on her own, things probably wouldn't have escalated as they did. but there's a saying that an unjust peace is better than a just war, so they ultimately agreed to the terms.
then there's the fact that an armistice was declared; it wasn't a win-more of a temporary ceasefire while they tried to work up a plan to end the war. germany almost went back to fighting again, rather than accept france's offer. wilson did his best to keep france from imposing such harsh terms. the harshness is what lead to everything that germany went thru after, and what lead to hitler's rise, and eventually to ww2 in europe.

and i agree completely-when one looks at iraq in a historical vein, it's nothing. however, it's impact on this country in its short history is huge.

on another note about ww1, if anyone is ever in kansas city, mo, the ww1 museum is located there. excellent displays, lots of info. 34000 miles of trenches on the western front alone.

Sure but what if we hadnt got involvd and France and other countries were annexed. It would have only been a matter of time until Russia ramped up and went to war with Germany again and with the Germans so spread out most likely constantly putting out fires from the underground which wouldnt have been so happy with being taken over they might have actually lost. Would Russian control of Europe be a positive? Obviously hypo's but it isnt a given that germany would have sucessfully ruled Europe peacefully. As a matter of fact you could argue that there might have been multiple wars.

[DaTruth]

The invasion of Iraq was foolhardy, but some of you act as if Saddam wasn't already on thin ice with the international community. You remember things like the conditions to end the 1991 Gulf War, UNSCOM, and the no-fly zones, right?

[bigrun]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The invasion of Iraq was foolhardy, but some of you act as if Saddam wasn't already on thin ice with the international community. You remember things like the conditions to end the 1991 Gulf War, UNSCOM, and the no-fly zones, right?

True, but how were they such a threat that required invasion and 8 year war?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by bigrun

True, but how were they such a threat that required invasion and 8 year war?

And over 1 Trillion dollars. Going forward unless we are attacked I say we institute a 10% war tax to pay for any of these wars. Congressional approval required. We will see how many of these useless wars we are invovled in.

[clyde]

The real danger here is the looming Russia/Turkey problem.




Should Russia make a move from the rear on Turkey...they would surely need Greece.

[bigrun]

Originally Posted by clyde

The real danger here is the looming Russia/Turkey problem.




Should Russia make a move from the rear on Turkey...they would surely need Greece.

stop it!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by jms62

And over 1 Trillion dollars. Going forward unless we are attacked I say we institute a 10% war tax to pay for any of these wars. Congressional approval required. We will see how many of these useless wars we are invovled in.

Bush's war was the first one the US didn't pay for when we invaded. What's a trillion on the taxpayers necks for decades, when you can give billions unaccounted for, to your contractor friends?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Riot

Bush's war was the first one the US didn't pay for when we invaded. What's a trillion on the taxpayers necks for decades, when you can give billions unaccounted for, to your contractor friends?[/

And they will argue this point with you They will bitch about the deficit yet be for these unpaid wars. They will be against taxes yet be for unfunded wars..... .

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Sure but what if we hadnt got involvd and France and other countries were annexed. It would have only been a matter of time until Russia ramped up and went to war with Germany again and with the Germans so spread out most likely constantly putting out fires from the underground which wouldnt have been so happy with being taken over they might have actually lost. Would Russian control of Europe be a positive? Obviously hypo's but it isnt a given that germany would have sucessfully ruled Europe peacefully. As a matter of fact you could argue that there might have been multiple wars.

thats the thing...no real way of knowing how things would have gone on from ww one. russia didnt really start exerting real power til after the second war. they got out of ww one before the end and of course had their revolution. it took a whuile for them to become a world player again.
im not suggesting that germany shouldnt have had conditions at the end of ww one. but the harshness of those conditions are what ultimately lead to hitler, rearming, and invasion.
at any rate, interesting to speculate, altho of course it really is a useless exercise.