ATR Hall of Fame Debate: Gio Ponti?

[golfer]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Manila is certainly top 3 turf horses I've seen in my lifetime (well, racing lifetime, since around 84).

I have no idea how it took so long to get him in the HOF. Well, I do, because people are generally idiots, but still.

As I said before, GP in the HOF? *&@% *#

If you had been live at Tampa Bay Downs 2 years ago like I was to see his epic battle waged against Karelian you'd ............................................feel exactly the way you do now.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by golfer

If you had been live at Tampa Bay Downs 2 years ago like I was to see him get herded 20 paths wide down the stretch by Homeister on Karelian you'd ............................................feel exactly the way you do now.

Hey Seth,

FTFY

To date, the absolutely worst non-takedown I've ever seen

[golfer]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Hey Seth,

FTFY

To date, the absolutely worst non-takedown I've ever seen

Now I remember, you had a bit of riding on that outcome. Oops.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by golfer

Now I remember, you had a bit of riding on that outcome. Oops.

It's amazing the stuff you can remember like it was yesterday when it costs ya a hefty P4 payout ... lol....

[Calzone Lord]

Who are some of the turf males with no dirt success in the hall of fame?

Manila (took for freaking ever because he was a turf horse)

Fort Marcy (3-time turf champion and joint Horse of the Year once - took for freaking ever because he's a turf horse)


Lure won the Breeders Cup Mile two years in a row -- and was an odds-on favorite to win it a third year in a row ... he also had a morsel of dirt success I suppose (5f track record at Belmont in his debut - dead heated with Devil His Due in the Gr 2 Gotham)

Lure's got absoutely zero shot of ever getting into the hall of fame because he's a turf horse.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Hey Seth,

FTFY

To date, the absolutely worst non-takedown I've ever seen

How about Powerscourt in the BC, That horse hit everything but Mrs. Crabtree in the Clubhouse(she was in ladies room doing a blast)

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by freddymo

How about Powerscourt in the BC, That horse hit everything but Mrs. Crabtree in the Clubhouse(she was in ladies room doing a blast)

Freddy,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDHXAij8EIk

Unfortunately the pan shot doesn't do it justice, if you can get the head on, it's brutal.

The beauty of this replay is listening to Grunder call Karelian "Curly Ann" throughout the race... luv mah boy

[postpicker]

You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.

[Calzone Lord]

Other than Manila and Fort Marcy -- who are the other turf males in the Hall of Fame without any dirt racing success?

Better Talk Now will never get in.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by postpicker

You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.

If any of those three get in, Bold Forbes deserves to be in. He would have flossed with Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and Barbaro, IMO.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by postpicker

You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and Barbaro dont deserve to be HoF horses. They simply didnt do enough though now days it seems to be a popularity contest and TC horses get an unbelievable amount of publicity versus a turf horse or even a good older horse.

Gio Ponte has been favored in 17 of 28 starts and lost 11 of those 17 times. I don't know how to interpretate this but his inclusion into the hall of Fame would make Jim Rice's selection look good. Shouldnt Hall of Fame horses win 17 out of 28? I know he has those grade 1 wins but they mostly came against subpar competition.

[nebrady]

Gio was one of the most consistent horses there was and if it wasn't for zenyatta and goldikova he would have won two breeders cup races. Won many grade 1 races and won on turf and synthetic. To me it is not even a question. Gonna miss you gio. hope you go out a winner on breeders cup day!

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by golfer

If you had been live at Tampa Bay Downs 2 years ago like I was to see his epic battle waged against Karelian you'd ............................................feel exactly the way you do now.

[Calzone Lord]

English Channel won 6 Grade 1's -- including the BC Turf -- and thankfully no one thinks he deserves consideration.

Though -- he was better than Gio Ponti and Better Talk Now.

[my miss storm cat]

"... and Gio Ponti is the leader....

Interpatation trying to come back at him...

With one furlong to go...

Interpatation is a stubborn foe...

GIO PONTI HAS LOST THE LEAD!

GIO PONTI HAS LOST THE LEAD!"



I don't care either way... I'm just still so happy I got to live through that and didn't imagine it!

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

English Channel won 6 Grade 1's -- including the BC Turf -- and thankfully no one thinks he deserves consideration.

Though -- he was better than Gio Ponti and Better Talk Now.

... and Kev in three..... two...... one....

[GPK]

Running in the same race as Dinner In Odem = Auto disqualification from even having your name mentioned for the HOF.

[Calzone Lord]

IMO, for one of our turf horses to be in the Hall of Fame -- they would need to be persumed good enough that if they went to Europe they could likely emerge as the best horse campaigning there.

I think that's mainly what people voting in the poll aren't getting -- turf accomplishments are viewed with much less importance than dirt accomplishments. Historical precedence... and it's not exactly like our top class turf horses have done anything in the last 15 years that should change that discrimination.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

IMO, for one of our turf horses to be in the Hall of Fame -- they would need to be persumed good enough that if they went to Europe they could likely emerge as the best horse campaigning there.

I think that's mainly what people voting in the poll aren't getting -- turf accomplishments are viewed with much less importance than dirt accomplishments. Historical precedence... and it's not exactly like our top class turf horses have done anything in the last 15 years that should change that discrimination.

That's exactly what my issue is. I don't know that he'd be in the absolute top tier in Europe and there've been other amazing turf horses worldwide, so what are we saying here? Comparing to other US turf horses is one thing. If you look at Goldikova, Frankel, Sea the Stars, Makybe Diva, Zarkava, Vodka ...is he in that breath and does he have to be? I know they're still leaning Mile, but I still wonder (like Haskin) whether the Classic might make a lot of sense for him. If you want to take a turfer onto a main track, I'd think this would be the place to do it, esp at the 1 1/4. I bet he could put in a terrific showing in the Mile, but you have to count on a Goldikova regression. For stallion value, for HOF status, and let's not forget for more money, there's an opportunity here for Gio Ponti in the BCC.