ATR Hall of Fame Debate: Gio Ponti?

[Indian Charlie]

Manila is certainly top 3 turf horses I've seen in my lifetime (well, racing lifetime, since around 84).

I have no idea how it took so long to get him in the HOF. Well, I do, because people are generally idiots, but still.

As I said before, GP in the HOF? *&@% *#

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Manila is certainly top 3 turf horses I've seen in my lifetime (well, racing lifetime, since around 84).

I have no idea how it took so long to get him in the HOF. Well, I do, because people are generally idiots, but still.

As I said before, GP in the HOF? *&@% *#

Part of the delay with Manila -- and many other deserving horses/trainers/jocks -- was the quirky way the HOF was admitting candidates..

[Calzone Lord]

Gio Ponti's lifetime PP's:

[Seattleallstar]

I put Gio Ponti in the Medaglia D'oro category. Was a good race horse and won its share of big races, but never really won when it counted and when faced with the absolute best.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

I put Gio Ponti in the Medaglia D'oro category. Was a good race horse and won its share of big races, but never really won when it counted and when faced with the absolute best.

Never won when it counted? Two Shadwells, the Manhattan, two Man O' Wars, the Kilroe, the Arlington Million, those don't 'count'?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Never won when it counted? Two Shadwells, the Manhattan, two Man O' Wars, the Kilroe, the Arlington Million, those don't 'count'?

What about Lava Man?

3 Hollywood Gold Cup, 2 Santa Anita Handicaps, 1 Pacific Classic ... a Grade 1 winner on dirt, turf, and synthetic.

His collection of wins absolutely dwars Gio Ponti and his resume was mostly all dirt.

He should have been a 1st ballot Hall of Famer if Gio Ponti is a lock to get in.

[postpicker]

Lava Man will get in, but it will be curious to see how he is treated, because of the never winning outside of California angle. Look how long it took Sky Beauty to get in and she basically had the same rap against her. No one is saying Gio and BTN are first ballot, but I think they will eventually get in. First ballot will be reserved for the extraordinary horses like the tag team in five years when they become eligible, Rachel and Zenyatta.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Never won when it counted? Two Shadwells, the Manhattan, two Man O' Wars, the Kilroe, the Arlington Million, those don't 'count'?

Campaigning till you are 6 and not winning a BC race is an issue.

[golfer]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Manila is certainly top 3 turf horses I've seen in my lifetime (well, racing lifetime, since around 84).

I have no idea how it took so long to get him in the HOF. Well, I do, because people are generally idiots, but still.

As I said before, GP in the HOF? *&@% *#

If you had been live at Tampa Bay Downs 2 years ago like I was to see his epic battle waged against Karelian you'd ............................................feel exactly the way you do now.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by golfer

If you had been live at Tampa Bay Downs 2 years ago like I was to see him get herded 20 paths wide down the stretch by Homeister on Karelian you'd ............................................feel exactly the way you do now.

Hey Seth,

FTFY

To date, the absolutely worst non-takedown I've ever seen

[golfer]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Hey Seth,

FTFY

To date, the absolutely worst non-takedown I've ever seen

Now I remember, you had a bit of riding on that outcome. Oops.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by golfer

Now I remember, you had a bit of riding on that outcome. Oops.

It's amazing the stuff you can remember like it was yesterday when it costs ya a hefty P4 payout ... lol....

[Calzone Lord]

Who are some of the turf males with no dirt success in the hall of fame?

Manila (took for freaking ever because he was a turf horse)

Fort Marcy (3-time turf champion and joint Horse of the Year once - took for freaking ever because he's a turf horse)


Lure won the Breeders Cup Mile two years in a row -- and was an odds-on favorite to win it a third year in a row ... he also had a morsel of dirt success I suppose (5f track record at Belmont in his debut - dead heated with Devil His Due in the Gr 2 Gotham)

Lure's got absoutely zero shot of ever getting into the hall of fame because he's a turf horse.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Hey Seth,

FTFY

To date, the absolutely worst non-takedown I've ever seen

How about Powerscourt in the BC, That horse hit everything but Mrs. Crabtree in the Clubhouse(she was in ladies room doing a blast)

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by freddymo

How about Powerscourt in the BC, That horse hit everything but Mrs. Crabtree in the Clubhouse(she was in ladies room doing a blast)

Freddy,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDHXAij8EIk

Unfortunately the pan shot doesn't do it justice, if you can get the head on, it's brutal.

The beauty of this replay is listening to Grunder call Karelian "Curly Ann" throughout the race... luv mah boy

[postpicker]

You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.

[Calzone Lord]

Other than Manila and Fort Marcy -- who are the other turf males in the Hall of Fame without any dirt racing success?

Better Talk Now will never get in.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by postpicker

You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.

If any of those three get in, Bold Forbes deserves to be in. He would have flossed with Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and Barbaro, IMO.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by postpicker

You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and Barbaro dont deserve to be HoF horses. They simply didnt do enough though now days it seems to be a popularity contest and TC horses get an unbelievable amount of publicity versus a turf horse or even a good older horse.

Gio Ponte has been favored in 17 of 28 starts and lost 11 of those 17 times. I don't know how to interpretate this but his inclusion into the hall of Fame would make Jim Rice's selection look good. Shouldnt Hall of Fame horses win 17 out of 28? I know he has those grade 1 wins but they mostly came against subpar competition.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by golfer

If you had been live at Tampa Bay Downs 2 years ago like I was to see his epic battle waged against Karelian you'd ............................................feel exactly the way you do now.