Wait On That Abortion

[Riot]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

how one views abortion is a function of one and only one factor...when one believes life begins. If you believe it begins at conception, you oppose abortion; if you believe at birth, you support a woman's right to make decisions about her body.

Nonsense. That's not true, and it's overly simplistic. I think life begins at conception, I'm not in favor of abortions, but I absolutely defend the right of a woman to choose for herself, without interference from other people, let alone some government forcing her to have a baby she doesn't want.

As an additional aside, that statement takes the argument regarding the legality of abortion and takes it out of the legal realm, and puts it into the scientific realm. First, it does not belong in the scientific realm, because scientists have no standing - jurists do. Secondly, jurists are not scientists, thus haven't the same understandings of the discussion if one is to make it scientific. Third, there are plenty of jurists and legislators that have publicly and clearly said they don't "believe in" science - thus hardly the people to make "scientific" decisions.

Abortion is a question of constitutionality, but not based upon the presumption that a collection of undifferentiated cells has 100% of the rights of a citizen sitting across from you (which is why the anti-abortion crowd has spent decades trying to make a conceptus a "person" with 100% of those rights - see how Joey talks?)

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Riot

Nonsense. That's not true, and it's overly simplistic. I think life begins at conception, I'm not in favor of abortions, but I absolutely defend the right of a woman to choose for herself, without interference from other people, let alone some government forcing her to have a baby she doesn't want.

How then can you justify "Roe"? Does that mean you think the woman's right to an abortion is more important than the life of her unborn?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

How then can you justify "Roe"? Does that mean you think the woman's right to an abortion is more important than the life of her unborn?

Roe is based upon a woman's right to privacy under the Constitution. I agree with Roe, in that a woman's right to an abortion decreases as fetal viability outside the womb is enabled.

Yes, I think in a general way a woman's right to control her own body in all ways superceedes the rights of her unborn child, up to a certain extent, which must encompass a fetus that is viable outside the womb by definition - but it is clearly not black and white after a certain point (greatly determined by fetal viability as an independent organism) and must be assessed on an individual basis.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Riot

Roe is based upon a woman's right to privacy under the Constitution. I agree with Roe, in that a woman's right to an abortion decreases as fetal viability outside the womb is enabled.

Yes, I think in a general way a woman's right to control her own body in all ways superceedes the rights of her unborn child, up to a certain extent, which must encompass a fetus that is viable outside the womb by definition - but it is clearly not black and white after a certain point (greatly determined by fetal viability as an independent organism) and must be assessed on an individual basis.

Not to be picky but aren't you saying that your view puts you in the position of judging which people will live and die, granting less rights to one life than another?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Not to be picky but aren't you saying that your view puts you in the position of judging which people will live and die, granting less rights to one life than another?

See my explaination within my answer. I hardly think my answer can be put into "one view" status.

Not that animals have anything remotely to do with humans, of course, but I will readily spay dogs and cats within 3-4 weeks of their being bred and suspected to be probably pregnant, and I adamantly refuse to spay animals within 4 weeks of their due date. I do not find that position medically ethically or logically incompatible in the least.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Riot

See my explaination within my answer. I hardly think my answer can be put into "one view" status.

Not that animals have anything remotely to do with humans, of course, but I will readily spay dogs and cats within 3-4 weeks of their being bred and suspected to be probably pregnant, and I adamantly refuse to spay animals within 4 weeks of their due date. I do not find that position medically ethically or logically incompatible in the least.

Well, this is an individual thing of course but witches believe that animals, like humans, have souls...so to me, I see little difference. Your logic doesn't apply to my beliefs, same with you ethical conclusion. Perhaps that's why I see this as an "either/or" situation.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Well, this is an individual thing of course but witches believe that animals, like humans, have souls...so to me, I see little difference. Your logic doesn't apply to my beliefs, same with you ethical conclusion. Perhaps that's why I see this as an "either/or" situation.

I think animals have souls, too. And that has everything to do with the ethical decisions I make for my patients, and why I advocate for the patient to or over the owner. So your either/or logic doesn't apply to my real world of having to actually make and carry out those sorts of decisions on real souls sitting in front of me.